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Old 02-10-2009, 07:35 AM
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Roller Paint Follow Up

In order to maintain a thread in a Tech forum the thread has to contain technical information to help the individual desiring to to use that technique or method to have the information necessary to do it..I see nothing of this discussion pertaining to the method of rolling and tipping. Therefore this thread is going to the Dump

Sam


I though this thread was packed with tech info, that it had plenty of helpful ideas and discussion, both pro and con.
Yes there was some OT comments, but I am sure I could find some of that on other threads too......

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Old 02-10-2009, 07:41 AM
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problem is the last post in it was just to stir up ****. happens every time .
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Old 02-10-2009, 08:42 AM
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Roll and Tip

Have had a few PM’s about this so will write how I do it in some detail so forgive me if it sounds a bit simplistic – I know most of you know a lot more about painting than me - but it will help jog my memory as it has been a while since I painted.

This is not a cheapo paint job. The paint I recommend costs almost $300 a gallon.

This is not an easy paint job. It will take at least as long for a beginner to do this than spray, prep work is exactly the same. An experienced body guy will be able to spray a car in a fraction of the time.

This is for people who can’t spray for some reason (health, environmental etc.) or will only be painting once or very seldom and don’t want to buy the equipment, but want to do their own work. It has been used for years and will produce a beautifully smooth finish when done correctly


Tools
Most important are the small, white foam rollers sold in most hardware stores, Home Depot sells them for about $10 for 4. I use the 4 inch; if you have large flat areas you might want to go up to the 6 inch. They are called ‘ultra-smooth foam rollers’ or something like that.
I highly recommend you use a good quality brush. I ONLY use Badger hair brushes http://www.jamestowndistributors.com...r+Hair+Brushes
I have a 3 inch for the large areas and a one inch for the detail stuff. I have been told you can get a good finish with the throwaway foam brushes but have not tried them.
Some of the small roller trays are also a good idea although fairly expensive.
And then of course the usual assortment of paint buckets, sticks etc.

I always follow all directions when it comes to safety and application of the paints. I always wear a respirator.

Primers
Most of my work has been done on top of the Awl-grip 545 epoxy primer
( http://www.awlgrip.com/products/sear...xy_Primer.aspx ).
This stuff is great it will go on almost anything (steel, Aluminum, Fiberglass), rolls on very nicely and it sands fairly easily. You need to use the foam rollers and I have had no luck tipping it so you will probably end up with slight orange peel which will have to be sanded out.

I have used the polyester primer ‘Duratec’ on my current project. I really like this stuff as well because it is so thick like a High-build primer and you can actually work it with a spreader if you want to cover some serious body defects. Don’t know if it will go straight on steel as I have only used it on Fiberglass. Only problem is you will have bad orange peel so it will need lots of sanding but it fortunately sands very easily. A nice feature is it dries fairly black but sands gray so you can easily see depressions and scratches. Careful of the dust it sets of my asthma if I don’t use a good fitting dust mask. You cannot use the white foam rollers, they will melt I use these -- http://www.uscomposites.com/brushes.html called the ‘red glasskoter’

I have used the Interlux epoxy-primer that comes recommended with the ‘Perfection’ system. If you want to use this you had better have done all your filling and smoothing as it dries rock hard and is a s.o.b. to sand although rolls on quite nicely.


Topcoats
My favorite paint is the ‘Perfection’ by interlux.
http://www.jamestowndistributors.com...t+Polyurethane
I have bought from this web site but usually from the local marine store.
It is a 2 part poly that is specifically designed to be put on using this method and aimed at the hobbyist. Here is a Tech sheet from the manufacturer. http://www.yachtpaint.com/holding_pa...df/leaflet.pdf

I have also used the 2 part poly Topcoat from Awlgrip
( http://www.awlgrip.com/Pages/home.aspx ), Stirling and Imron. I like the Awl-Grip best but it is primarily designed to spray and is difficult to roll-and-tip. It needs to be thinned and left for quite a while to activate. It took me 2 coats on the deck of a 60 foot sailboat to start getting the hang of it. I have not used any single stage auto paints but from what I read they are similar to the Awl-grip i.e. single stage two-part urethanes. I would be interested in hearing from anyone who tries it, if you have any left over stuff it might be worth a shot to see how it comes out.

I have also use single part polys which go on very easily but can not be sanded and buffed so if you screw up you have to recoat. The Brightside enamel from international goes on so smooth you don’t even have to tip the paint, I should try this on a car someday.

Technique
Once mixed let it sit for a while, I use about a quart per coat but my car is quite big, although I don’t have a roof, I would suggest mixing only a half or third until you know how much you will use, no sense in wasting it. Put some in the tray and work the roller back and fore through the paint to completely saturate the roller (but make sure it’s only lightly loaded when you use it) this helps to get rid of air bubbles, I sometimes don’t do this and it doesn’t seem to make too much difference. You still might get some bubbles but the brush should take them out.

Principle behind the method is this. The roller puts a thin even coat on say about 2 0r 3 square feet, then you switch to the brush and with it angled at about 45 degrees - very lightly drag the brush through the paint. The brush doesn’t put on any paint, it just helps break the surface tension and allow it to flow smoothly over the surface. In fact once you finish painting the whole car you should only have the very tip of the bristles coated with paint, say about quarter of an inch.

The key to the whole thing is the roller and getting the right thickness of coat on evenly. This is the toughest part, I still put too much on occasionally and end up with sags and runs, especially when I go back to a spot that I have left for a few minutes on vertical surfaces. Try and split the car up into the smallest natural sections doors, trunk etc. because once you roll a section you only have a certain amount of time to go back and pick up the ‘wet edge’ without leaving a visible line. If your edge dries or you screw up try to resist the temptation to go back and fix it, 9 times out of 10 you will make it worse, I fall for this trap almost every single time! After a few minutes of the paint sitting on the surface you will NOT flatten any lines or peel. All this might sound complicated but it is not really, this is the part you have to do to get the feel of it. After the first coat you should be able to tell exactly where you went wrong once you go back and look at the cured paint, and be able to adjust technique i.e. how much to roll on before switching to the brush, how thick to put it on, how gentle to hold the brush etc.

Obviously if you have lines, peel or screw ups you will have to sand flat before another coat. There is a recoat time when you can apply second coat without sanding.
Coverage of the red paint sucks, I had to paint 3 coats and I still need at least one more. Black covers beautifully but do not listen to the directions about sandpaper grit. IIRC it said 220-320 was adequate but it is not so I recommend at least 320, maybe even higher. I will probably be using closer to 500 for my final coat.

OK that is all I can think of right now, here is a link to some guys putting it on a boat, the video is a little small and grainy but gives you a good idea scroll down the page a bit. http://www.yachtpaint.com/usa/

A tip on using regular polyurethane http://www.boatus.com/boattech/TipRollingTipping.htm
You usually don’t have to do this with Perfection, in my experience it is fine without thinner although if you are painting outside that would probably change.

Good luck, let me know how it works out for you or if you have any questions.
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Old 02-10-2009, 08:54 AM
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This is going to be my last post on this subject, I am tired of the arguing and want to get back to building my car. I am not going to waste any more time on it.

I was not surprised to see the original post dumped, it is true there was not really a lot of tech info and I understand the mod's decision although I suspect there were some other people involved in it. A better way might of been to spin off the bad posts but no matter it's a tough job and I respect the mod's actions.

I think it would be a good idea to lock this thread and let it quietly disappear so there is no more bad feeling, but people who are doing a search on it can still access it.

Thanks to everyone for the messages and feel free to PM me if you want more info.

Last edited by scrimshaw; 02-10-2009 at 08:59 AM.
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Old 02-10-2009, 09:10 AM
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I don't know if anyone will find this useful, especially since this thread will most likely end up in the dump anyway, but I've been doing a little research, and here are some interesting things I found. Most of it is available in more detail here: http://www.hemmings.com/hmn/stories/..._feature7.html

Types of paint used on automobiles.

Air-dry, non curing (soluble after drying)

Nitrocellulose Lacquer
Acrylic Lacquer - Synthetic version of Nitrocellulose with similar properties
Alkyd Enamel - Synthetic enamel

Air-dry, air hardening (insoluble after curing)
Acrylic Enamel - 1960s enamel

Hardened/Crosslinked
Polyurethane Enamel - 1980s

Isocyanate Catalyst
Catalyzed Urethane



I may be mistaken, because due to marketing, its often difficult to tell what product labels mean. However, what we would generally call a BC/CC system is going to be a Catalyzed Urethane. Really phenomenal stuff, but it is spray-only due to the solvent designs (and the EPA has pretty much regulated it out of approved home usage).

On the other end of the spectrum. The "$50 paint job" guys are using Rustoleum. From what I can tell, that's an acrylic enamel.

What the "Dump"-ed thread was trying to discuss (well, every 20th post or so) was the use of marine-quality polyurethane enamel. This is designed to be used with a hardner, and was originally developed for the aviation industry. The lines between an acrylic enamel and a polyurethane enamel are blurred a bit, since you can add a hardner to the acrylic enamel, and you can also let a polyurethane enamel air cure.

The thing about marine polyurethane enamels, is that most are designed around a home hobbiest, so they can be brushed, rolled, or sprayed. They also aren't cheap. Because of the marine environment, they have pretty decent durability, although still not up to catalyzed urethane levels.

Now, yes, polyurethane enamels aren't as good as catalyzed urethanes. That's just the way it is. From what I've been reading, you can expect to get maybe 2-5 years of decent durability out of an acrylic enamel, 5-7 out of a polyurethane enamel, and 10+ out of a catalyzed urethane. Of course, here in the northeast, 1999/2000 vehicles are already starting to show signs of rust, so I'm not sure how useful a 10+year finish is if the underlying vehicle rusts away out from under it, but I digress.

Everyone agrees that a sprayed catalyzed urethane BC/CC is the best way to go. Great color selections, excellent finish and gloss, best durability.

But, it requires the right equipment, a decent set of skills, and a piece of real estate away from other people (or a commercial-quality fume-trapping paint booth). Many have developed the skills. Several can put together the equipment on the cheap, but if you don't have access to either a commercial booth, or a piece of property far enough away from others, then you can't legally (or morally) spray a catalyzed urethane.


So what's a hobbiest in that situation to do? Farm it out to a professional? As plenty of threads can attest, this can be a crapshoot, and it sure ain't cheap.


What was being discussed is another option. One that takes quite a bit more work, doesn't have quite the durability, and has less color selection. But it can be done by anyone, just about anywhere, and if you put in the time and work, the results can be pretty amazing.

Seems like an attractive compromise to me, but I view hot rodding as a participation hobby - not one where you farm out everything to professionals. What scrimshaw has posted gives a finish as smooth as anything I've seen at a show (after color sanding). Gloss and depth are at least as good as some of the value-line urethanes. And the builder gets to say he did it himself.

Seems like this is the essense of hot rodding to me.
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Old 02-10-2009, 10:31 AM
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You have the makings of a good wiki here, lots of great information. I hope you continue to develop the information needed. I like the innovation, that's what rodding is all about!
Dan
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Old 02-10-2009, 10:47 AM
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Excellent guys..So Far so good..Now if it stays on topic as far as means and methods we are golden..

Sam
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Old 02-10-2009, 11:13 AM
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Very pleased to see this thread go in the right direction, thanx for getting it on track "One More Time", thanx to Scrimshaw, as his knowledge and expertise on this method are phenomenol..........MC
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Old 02-10-2009, 01:23 PM
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I came across this other product line. I have no experience with it.

System Three makes a polyurethane enamel for marine use called WR-LPU. Appears to be similar to the products Scrimshaw has used.

One difference is that, besides the 12 standard colors (custom mixing is also available), it comes in a satin clear and gloss clear.

From the application guide, this appears to be somewhat similar to a BC/CC system, in that the colored coatings go on with a semi-gloss finish, which although works fine as is, can be enhanced by overcoating with gloss clear. 1-2 coats base with 1-2 coats clear. More if sanding and buffing.


It is made to work with their WR-155 epoxy primer, which appears to have some build, but can also be used as a sealer. These can be applied over wood, metal, epoxy resin, polyester resin surfaces and are both water-based and can be applied with brush, roller or spray.

All of the above are sandable and the top coatings can be buffed with standard auto compounds.

At least one site (boat building) recommends not using standard bondo or other polyester-based fillers with these coatings. Instead they recommend epoxy-resin fillers like Quickfair ("fairing" is the boating term for "filler"). Others seem OK with it. It would seem prudent to stay with whatever the coating manufacturer recommends.

Several sites recommend a paint thickness gauge to insure that the coatings remain within recommended specs.
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Old 02-10-2009, 03:58 PM
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Hey Shine---
Are these guys for real??????
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Old 02-10-2009, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by da34guy
Hey Shine---
Are these guys for real??????
Yes they are, lets keep the discussion technical without emotions.

Vince
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Old 02-10-2009, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by 302 Z28
Yes they are, lets keep the discussion technical without emotions.

Vince
Thanx Vince, lets keep this to the point of being a paint method, and all it entails....MC
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Old 02-10-2009, 08:08 PM
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[QUOTE=ckucia]
On the other end of the spectrum. The "$50 paint job" guys are using Rustoleum. From what I can tell, that's an acrylic enamel.

Again, some very good info, and history of automotive painting.

What is the difference chemically between an Alkyd and Acrylic enamel? Can someone educate me on the difference.

Tremclad in Canada is marketed as an Alkyd enamel, yet I have mixed it with acrylic enamel activator, and acrylic enamel reducer to paint parts, equipment etc.
I would have thought the additives would not have mixed with the cheap Tremclad paint , but it does. the first time I tried to mix the activator and redcuer into the paint I though it would curdle, nothing happened, it just mixed in and kicked the paint.
2k urethane products can be harsh to work around. In my home shop, I do not have a fresh air system, or proper ventalation. I will not spray 2 k urethane primer this time of the year, I will only spray it in summer with the doors up, I do not feel safe with this stuff in an enclosed building, with just a 3m half mask, am I being to paranoid, or what?
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Old 02-11-2009, 06:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mopar Coupe
What is the difference chemically between an Alkyd and Acrylic enamel? Can someone educate me on the difference.

Tremclad in Canada is marketed as an Alkyd enamel, yet I have mixed it with acrylic enamel activator, and acrylic enamel reducer to paint parts, equipment etc.
I would have thought the additives would not have mixed with the cheap Tremclad paint , but it does. the first time I tried to mix the activator and redcuer into the paint I though it would curdle, nothing happened, it just mixed in and kicked the paint.
According to this site: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_th...modified_alkyd

"Alkyds can be modified (blended with ) acrylic resins/emulsions or other polymers such as phenolic resins or urethanes, so all acrylic alkyds are modified alkyds, but not all modified alkyds are acrylic alkyds. Both are pretty general terms, but modified alkyd is much more vague and proprietary.

The term "Acrylic Alkyd" is usually reserved for alkyds which have been chemically modified with acrylic monomers such as methyl methacrylate, methacrylic acid, styrene, vinyl toluene, etc. These acrylic monomers are incorporated into the alkyd molecule by addition polymerization. Such alkyds are generally characterized by faster solvent release, quicker tack-free time, better hardness, blocking resistance, color and color retention, and durability, depending on the choice of monomers and amount of acrylic content. These alkyds are also more expensive than conventional alkyds due to higher cost of monomers and the additional manufacturing steps required. "


I read that over twice and I'm still not sure I really understand what it's saying on a practical level. Seems to indicate you can be OK with mixing some components between the two.

Rustoleum/Tremclad may be an alkyd enamel. It's sort of hard to get a solid technical definition about anything as their aren't any "paint police" and it seems the marketing departments latch onto any term that is popular and find a way to make their products fall under that label.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mopar Coupe
2k urethane products can be harsh to work around. In my home shop, I do not have a fresh air system, or proper ventalation. I will not spray 2 k urethane primer this time of the year, I will only spray it in summer with the doors up, I do not feel safe with this stuff in an enclosed building, with just a 3m half mask, am I being to paranoid, or what?
I would definitely be paranoid with the topcoats. I don't know enough about the primers. They don't seem as nasty - do the primers catalyze like the topcoats or are they just compatible with the topcoats? I'm definitely guilty of spraying the 2k primer w/o much protection.

Last edited by ckucia; 02-11-2009 at 06:27 AM.
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Old 02-11-2009, 07:01 AM
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There is no need to spray 2K primer as there is a 2K hi build primer on the market that is rollable as per the manufacturers tech sheet.

This 2k primer comes from a very highly regarded supplier on this board supplier:

Click here for 2K roller primer

Last edited by Old Fool; 02-11-2009 at 07:14 AM.
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