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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 11-28-2013, 05:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techinspector1 View Post
It makes little sense to use 1.6 rockers on a street motor small block Chevy. Now, if you're talking race motor, great, knock yourself out, use 1.8 rockers if you can make them work. But here on this forum, we're dealing with fellows who are looking for a little more grunt from their street motor, not looking for every last horsepower and making the valvetrain work harder than it has to. We have enough trouble with fragging cams and lifters as it is, without adding fuel to the fire.

A change from 1.5 to 1.6 adds 16% more effort to the cam lobe and the lifter crown for a return of ~10-15 horsepower in most cases. What difference does it make if the motor is making 400 hp or 410 hp? The driver ain't gonna feel it in the seat of his pants anyway.

You do what you feel you have to do and I'll continue advising against higher ratio rockers on street motors, favoring long life rather than extracting every last horsepower from a motor.
all true but I think the engine he'll be using is a roller cam, if so. most of that goes out the window.. I have 80000 miles on a set of comp cams stainless steel full roller promagnum rockers.. they were pricey back in 1995 when I bought them and the newer ones are no different.. .
my vortec crate 350 has 1.6 rockers and ramjet cam.. haven't heard of many with the ramjet crate having rocker failures.. but the cam isn't all that wild either.. the engine with 80k on it.. is a solid flat tappet comp cam. would have to find the cam card.. but it's just a little wilder than comps 292hyd with a lot more lift than the .501 the 292 has

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 11-28-2013, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by 4 Jaw Chuck View Post
Thanks for the personal experiences gents, sets my mind at ease.

Man those GMPP parts are expensive here in Canada, ordered a replacement intake and exhaust valve today from my local GM dealer. Hold your hats...one of each of the hollow intake and sodium filled exhaust valve totalled $170 before taxes.

I only paid $250 for both heads!

Good thing only one of each needed needed replacing, I could get titanium valves at those prices.
are ou sure that's not one set of each..
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 11-28-2013, 04:02 PM
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406 SBC, 260/266 @ .050" Crower solid flat tappet cam .570/.595" lift using 1.6 ratio/3/8" stud Wolverine Blue Racer (Crane) extruded aluminum full roller rockers. Chrome moly pushrods, Crane #99893 1.460" diameter double spring, 125 lbs seat load, 340 lbs over the nose load.

25,000+ street miles, strip 8-10 times a summer, run to 7400-7600 rpm regularly at the drags, ....no problems with the rockers in 10 years time.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 11-28-2013, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericnova72 View Post
406 SBC, 260/266 @ .050" Crower solid flat tappet cam .570/.595" lift using 1.6 ratio/3/8" stud Wolverine Blue Racer (Crane) extruded aluminum full roller rockers. Chrome moly pushrods, Crane #99893 1.460" diameter double spring, 125 lbs seat load, 340 lbs over the nose load.

25,000+ street miles, strip 8-10 times a summer, run to 7400-7600 rpm regularly at the drags, ....no problems with the rockers in 10 years time.
Now, there's a testimonial!!!!!!!!!!
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 11-28-2013, 04:39 PM
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I'd also add that friends have used Scorpion and Harland Sharps for street/strip use for 4-5 years in SBC's with no problems also. Solid lifter cams in the .550"+ lift range, and .625" lift Herbert solid roller in one case with the Scorpions.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 11-28-2013, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techinspector1 View Post
Now, there's a testimonial!!!!!!!!!!
I'll say!

I wonder if a lot of the nightmare roller rocker destructions aren't a result of piston/valve contact after floating way over redline.

One issue that seems to be only addressed by one rocker design is spring cooling (T&D Machine Products). With a stud girdle, sheet metal deflector or factory style valve cover over the valve train this is addressed. Probably the only reason I would run a girdle on the street is to keep the oil down especially with those fashionable tall valve covers.

I know in a high rpm race car its important and a street car not so much, how many of you use such a device on your street car?

Just curious.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 11-29-2013, 02:05 PM
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I have two small block chevy's and I have used a set of crane energizer 1.5 full roller rocker arms for over ten years now with no issues and it has seen 7 grand on a few occasions and no issues. The other one I am using a set of summit brand full roller rocker arms and I have used them for over 5 years now and they still look like new on both engines even though they don't see a lot of driving time these days because of other reasons but they have worked great for me. The ones to stay away from are the really cheap ones being sold on ebay that are out of spec and made of not properly heat treated materials. That is what I read on them. If you get from a good name brand then you should be good to go like Harland scorpion com cams etc.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 11-30-2013, 10:27 AM
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Buddy had a 1996 LT4 Corvette. The LT4 is/was the only GEN 1/2/3/4/5 SBC engine to ever use full roller rockers from the factory. They did have a recall on them early on, but he beat the snot out of that car. Stock rev limit was 6412 rpm and he had a cam added and rev limit raised to 6800rpm. He had over 220,000kms on that car before he got rid of it. The LT4 rockers were supplied by Crane, and Crane Gold roller rockers are pretty much teh same asteh original LT4 rockers.

The reason GM used the full roller rockers instead of teh ball and stud was because of galling between the rocker and ball seat that occurs over 6000rpm. The LT4 also used the LT4 springs which use an ovate(oval) wire. The Beehive springs use ovate wire as well.

peace
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 11-30-2013, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4 Jaw Chuck View Post
Lots of reasons why I want to use 1.6 ratio rockers, primarily I am duplicating the ZZ430 crate motor from GMPP which used the LT4 cam and 1.6 rockers. I already have the proper AL 604 heads which I lucked out on finding cheap.

The GMPP "Hot cam" P/N 846 which was a part of this package has a 0.525" lift with the 1.6 rockers which is max for the stock springs, looked hard for an aftermarket cam that is similar but everything is either way higher or lower lift or too little duration or too much.

I've thought about stepping up to the next level cam P/N 847 but then I need new springs, this is what is used in the ZZ465 crate engine and honestly the car won't need more power for the application.

The car is a FC 1987 Mazda RX7 TurboII with 4.33:1 rear axle, about 2600 pds total. Engine is a late model 4 bolt main Gen I roller block about 10:1 comp with a TH400 trans.

I'm going to use the stock exhaust so it's quiet and a radical cam would give it away, the car will be autocrossed so big cams are useless when precision and a broad flat torque curve is key.

Here's the car, engine will be relocated about 5" rearward with front and mid motor plates.


The ZZ430 did NOT use that 846 cam which is a Crane cam supplied to CPP(Chev Performance Parts). The LT4 Hotcam kit is what the ZZ430 engines used alomng with 1.6:1 rockers for the 218/228 0.525"/0.525" 112. With 1.5" its 0.492"/0.492".
This cam is 24502586 (586).

The 846 cam has specs of 222/230 0.509"/0.528" with 1.5:1 rockers.
The 847 cam has specs of234/242 0.539"/0.558" with 1.5:1 rockers.

The ZZ465 is a SDPC engine, not a GM crte. Still a decent engine though.

Downloading the new Chev Performance Catalogue as I type.

peace
Hog
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 11-30-2013, 10:40 AM
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I've used comps cheaper extruded aluminum 1.6 rockers on my 351W in my Bronco with no problems. I only have about 20k on that motor though and only revved it to about 6000 with a mild flat tappet.

The op mentioned using 3/8 studs. What about stepping up to 7/16? I was thinking of doing this on my next motor build. It doesn't seem like the extra cost is that much for a more solid valve train especially if you are using higher ratios. What do you guys think?
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 11-30-2013, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by jokerZ71 View Post
F'Bird,do you have the part# for the GM retainers?I heard they have em,but,haven't found any.
part number from the service kit 19303149

part number 19301708 These are found on the new for 2014 Fastburn 210cc heads

Cant find any prices on the retainers, CPP calls them caps sometimes, and retainers at others.

19300952 NEW
Beehive Valve Spring Conversion Kit $325
Convert the valvetrain on your aluminum Fast Burn heads to the
beehive-type system used on Chevrolet Performance’s latest Fast Burn
heads (P/N 19300955) – and used on the ZZ5 and ZZ383 crate engines,
and CT400 – to gain greater high-rpm capability and valvetrain stability.
The springs, retainers and other hardware are direct replacements for
the conventional springs and hardware, with no machining of the valve
spring seat required. The engine’s existing intake and exhaust valves
are retained, allowing installation without cylinder head removal if
compressed air or another method is used to hold the valves closed.
The engine’s existing rocker arms are also retained. The kit comes with
components to convert a pair of cylinder heads, including:
Part Number Quantity Description
126235033 16 Spring
19301708 16 Cap
19301707 16 Seat
19301709 32 Keeper
Note : The conversion kit is intended only for Fast Burn heads and is not
compatible with Vortec heads because of insufficient room for the spring seats.


peace
Hog
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 11-30-2013, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hogg View Post
The ZZ430 did NOT use that 846 cam which is a Crane cam supplied to CPP(Chev Performance Parts). The LT4 Hotcam kit is what the ZZ430 engines used alomng with 1.6:1 rockers for the 218/228 0.525"/0.525" 112. With 1.5" its 0.492"/0.492".
This cam is 24502586 (586).

The 846 cam has specs of 222/230 0.509"/0.528" with 1.5:1 rockers.
The 847 cam has specs of234/242 0.539"/0.558" with 1.5:1 rockers.

The ZZ465 is a SDPC engine, not a GM crte. Still a decent engine though.

Downloading the new Chev Performance Catalogue as I type.

peace
Hog
Thanks Hogg,

Yes I am aware of the differences in the cams listed, I like the longer duration of the "846" and "847" cams, the hot cam seems a little mild in my experience especially since I'm building the motor to be a little more top end oriented. The problem I am facing is keeping the "604" springs and staying under the 0.525" limit, the "846" cam with 1.5:1 rockers does this but gives up almost 35HP up top where I may need it. A girdle is already in the cards so changing to 7/16" studs is not necessary if I run one.

The car is very light with a steep gear of 4.30:1 already and torque with a 3000rpm converter won't be an issue, what I will need is an engine that I can stretch between corners on a track and stay in one gear. Weight distribution will be slightly rear biased hence the move of the engine 5" back with plates instead of an off the shelf granny's engine mount kit.

The class this car will fit in is an unlimited style class where I will be competing with full tube chassis kit cars running big blocks. There is one car which is a 427 ci 1967 Vette replica with a tube chassis and a 1966 Mustang replica running a full on aluminum SVO block. Big dollar cars to be sure and very fast but antiquated setups with old fashioned four speeds and off the shelf setups.

On paper my build looks competitive and I've seen these cars in action, they are as fast as a new ZL1 Corvette on the track which is the fastest I know in the club...all of these guys have cubic dollars and buy everything ready made.

I figure there is nothing better than an under dog and that would be me, intelligent design and setup with competitive power is all I need. This is where I am today, being able to drive it on the street will be gravy compared to these trailer queens who I am competing against.

Doing it cheap is the best part.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 11-30-2013, 05:27 PM
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Have you considered a GM 6 speed for your car?
There was a fella here that did what you are doing except he uses an LS-3 with hot cam and a little work,He figures 475 HP. The shop he works for builds old cars with new suspension and brakes,,,he gets beat on very long straights by the Porsche boys but on slower/tighter tracks he does very well and at a much lower cost.
I could find a contact number/e,mail if you want to talk to him? He now lives in the states,,
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 11-30-2013, 06:21 PM
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Not that I am against a manual transmission I've seen automatics do much better on the tight mall parking lot tracks that are usually the mainstay of this sport. Cones can be placed anywhere and spectators just show up when they see cars racing around.

I even contemplated a PG but then it would be single purpose with not a lot of flexibility, the big problem with manual transmissions in this class level is loosing the back end of the car on a shift. You already have your hands full trying to keep the car between the cones and on the tight tracks your mostly going to be running in one gear...and automatic gives you that torque multiplication to run that one gear all the way around.

Consistency is the key to winning not just one good run, manuals are cooler but at this HP level hard to be consistent when you get one lap at a time and traction is tough compared to a track.

Let's face it, we all think we are heroes behind the stick but on a slalom track with better than 400HP in a 2500-2600 pd car and speeds never get over 60 mph and it's full of switch backs and there is little room to drift it wide...I'm simply not good enough to drive and make great shifts or feather the clutch proficiently. Stab and steer is much easier to be consistent at when knocking even one cone down is the difference between winning and losing.
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Old 11-30-2013, 06:32 PM
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I always felt that when in a corner if an automatic(especially with a shift kit in a T-400) the back end could snap free on a snap shift as apposed to my old man reflexis and eat a sandwich between shifts like me,,,lol...
funny thing is I prefer automatics and 3 of my vehicles are standards?
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