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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 11-30-2013, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jokerZ71 View Post
F'Bird,do you have the part# for the GM retainers?I heard they have em,but,haven't found any.
part number from the service kit 19303149

part number 19301708 These are found on the new for 2014 Fastburn 210cc heads

Cant find any prices on the retainers, CPP calls them caps sometimes, and retainers at others.

19300952 NEW
Beehive Valve Spring Conversion Kit $325
Convert the valvetrain on your aluminum Fast Burn heads to the
beehive-type system used on Chevrolet Performance’s latest Fast Burn
heads (P/N 19300955) – and used on the ZZ5 and ZZ383 crate engines,
and CT400 – to gain greater high-rpm capability and valvetrain stability.
The springs, retainers and other hardware are direct replacements for
the conventional springs and hardware, with no machining of the valve
spring seat required. The engine’s existing intake and exhaust valves
are retained, allowing installation without cylinder head removal if
compressed air or another method is used to hold the valves closed.
The engine’s existing rocker arms are also retained. The kit comes with
components to convert a pair of cylinder heads, including:
Part Number Quantity Description
126235033 16 Spring
19301708 16 Cap
19301707 16 Seat
19301709 32 Keeper
Note : The conversion kit is intended only for Fast Burn heads and is not
compatible with Vortec heads because of insufficient room for the spring seats.


peace
Hog
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 11-30-2013, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hogg View Post
The ZZ430 did NOT use that 846 cam which is a Crane cam supplied to CPP(Chev Performance Parts). The LT4 Hotcam kit is what the ZZ430 engines used alomng with 1.6:1 rockers for the 218/228 0.525"/0.525" 112. With 1.5" its 0.492"/0.492".
This cam is 24502586 (586).

The 846 cam has specs of 222/230 0.509"/0.528" with 1.5:1 rockers.
The 847 cam has specs of234/242 0.539"/0.558" with 1.5:1 rockers.

The ZZ465 is a SDPC engine, not a GM crte. Still a decent engine though.

Downloading the new Chev Performance Catalogue as I type.

peace
Hog
Thanks Hogg,

Yes I am aware of the differences in the cams listed, I like the longer duration of the "846" and "847" cams, the hot cam seems a little mild in my experience especially since I'm building the motor to be a little more top end oriented. The problem I am facing is keeping the "604" springs and staying under the 0.525" limit, the "846" cam with 1.5:1 rockers does this but gives up almost 35HP up top where I may need it. A girdle is already in the cards so changing to 7/16" studs is not necessary if I run one.

The car is very light with a steep gear of 4.30:1 already and torque with a 3000rpm converter won't be an issue, what I will need is an engine that I can stretch between corners on a track and stay in one gear. Weight distribution will be slightly rear biased hence the move of the engine 5" back with plates instead of an off the shelf granny's engine mount kit.

The class this car will fit in is an unlimited style class where I will be competing with full tube chassis kit cars running big blocks. There is one car which is a 427 ci 1967 Vette replica with a tube chassis and a 1966 Mustang replica running a full on aluminum SVO block. Big dollar cars to be sure and very fast but antiquated setups with old fashioned four speeds and off the shelf setups.

On paper my build looks competitive and I've seen these cars in action, they are as fast as a new ZL1 Corvette on the track which is the fastest I know in the club...all of these guys have cubic dollars and buy everything ready made.

I figure there is nothing better than an under dog and that would be me, intelligent design and setup with competitive power is all I need. This is where I am today, being able to drive it on the street will be gravy compared to these trailer queens who I am competing against.

Doing it cheap is the best part.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 11-30-2013, 04:27 PM
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Have you considered a GM 6 speed for your car?
There was a fella here that did what you are doing except he uses an LS-3 with hot cam and a little work,He figures 475 HP. The shop he works for builds old cars with new suspension and brakes,,,he gets beat on very long straights by the Porsche boys but on slower/tighter tracks he does very well and at a much lower cost.
I could find a contact number/e,mail if you want to talk to him? He now lives in the states,,
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Old 11-30-2013, 05:21 PM
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Not that I am against a manual transmission I've seen automatics do much better on the tight mall parking lot tracks that are usually the mainstay of this sport. Cones can be placed anywhere and spectators just show up when they see cars racing around.

I even contemplated a PG but then it would be single purpose with not a lot of flexibility, the big problem with manual transmissions in this class level is loosing the back end of the car on a shift. You already have your hands full trying to keep the car between the cones and on the tight tracks your mostly going to be running in one gear...and automatic gives you that torque multiplication to run that one gear all the way around.

Consistency is the key to winning not just one good run, manuals are cooler but at this HP level hard to be consistent when you get one lap at a time and traction is tough compared to a track.

Let's face it, we all think we are heroes behind the stick but on a slalom track with better than 400HP in a 2500-2600 pd car and speeds never get over 60 mph and it's full of switch backs and there is little room to drift it wide...I'm simply not good enough to drive and make great shifts or feather the clutch proficiently. Stab and steer is much easier to be consistent at when knocking even one cone down is the difference between winning and losing.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 11-30-2013, 05:32 PM
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I always felt that when in a corner if an automatic(especially with a shift kit in a T-400) the back end could snap free on a snap shift as apposed to my old man reflexis and eat a sandwich between shifts like me,,,lol...
funny thing is I prefer automatics and 3 of my vehicles are standards?
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Old 11-30-2013, 05:59 PM
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HAHA I'm not getting any younger either, the young guns are almost all Miata/MX5 or Honda guys but stick to the lower classes. The big dollar guys have fancy trailers and lots of money, these are hardly street driven cars.

The ZL1 guy is seriously fast, almost the perfect car for this kind of racing but a little on the large side between the cones...he drives it there...gotta respect that even if it's a showroom car with sticky tires.

In years past there was one guy with a SBC powered British Anglia, really cool car and was the fastest for a long time. It was an automatic also but solid axle so if the track was bumpy he suffered...really nice guy too. Now it's all big dollar guys and huge egos in the upper classes, all the cool guys are gone "runnin what they brung".

At this point I have less than $1000 in the rolling chassis, $550 in the engine and only need a few more parts. I am trying to keep it under $2500 just for fun, seeing the look on their faces when you beat a $75K vette at his game is trophy enough for me!
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Old 11-30-2013, 06:17 PM
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I like to see how many cones I can actually knock over? Then do a burnout on the straights,they really hate that. The C-4 guys are all but finished with C-7s now here.The C-3s and 2s are a joke
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Old 12-06-2013, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4 Jaw Chuck View Post
I'll say!

I wonder if a lot of the nightmare roller rocker destructions aren't a result of piston/valve contact after floating way over redline.

One issue that seems to be only addressed by one rocker design is spring cooling (T&D Machine Products). With a stud girdle, sheet metal deflector or factory style valve cover over the valve train this is addressed. Probably the only reason I would run a girdle on the street is to keep the oil down especially with those fashionable tall valve covers.

I know in a high rpm race car its important and a street car not so much, how many of you use such a device on your street car?

Just curious.
Myself and friends use stud girdles on everything over .500" lift with 3/8" studs, and everything solid flat tappet or solid roller regardless of lift or stud diameter because the springs are higher force than plain old hydraulic cam stuff.

We figure stability always helps when talking about valvetrain in motion.
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Old 12-06-2013, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 64SS327 View Post
I've used comps cheaper extruded aluminum 1.6 rockers on my 351W in my Bronco with no problems. I only have about 20k on that motor though and only revved it to about 6000 with a mild flat tappet.

The op mentioned using 3/8 studs. What about stepping up to 7/16? I was thinking of doing this on my next motor build. It doesn't seem like the extra cost is that much for a more solid valve train especially if you are using higher ratios. What do you guys think?
If you are buying both the studs and the rockers, I consider it a no-brainer to go right to 7/16" studs, so I agree with you there.

I still would use a girdle on anything solid or solid roller, and would now include some of the bigger hydraulic roller cams using the high rpm, low bleeddown, reduced travel hydro roller lifters in this category now too.
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Old 12-06-2013, 08:07 PM
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Thanks guys, I will run a stud girdle after looking at all the benefits with AL heads particularly with tall valve covers.

Appreciate the help.
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Old 12-06-2013, 09:11 PM
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What works for a drag car may not for a road racer. You need durability over everything else. I'd spec a cam having the lift and dur. i wanted using 1.5 rockers and the rockers themselves would be steel. If you stick with studs I would use 7/16 or a t the very least a stud gurdle set up. Im guessing Jessel shaft is out of the budget but if not go w/them. Squirpion has a shaft set up out too.

If you use different ratios on the int. and ehx. be sure to check the geometry you may need two different length push rod. You will need to open the slots in the heads for 1.6 if theyre production pieces.
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Old 12-07-2013, 10:16 AM
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I just read a new Car Craft article where they took the newer Crane hydraulic roller lifters, 1.6:1 Crance Gold full roller rockers, dual coil springs, 5/16" pushrods, titanium retainers up to 7,000 then 7500 then 8000 then 8500rpm multiple times. Interesting read.
the roller lifters are $700 a set. The internal plunger/bore tolerances of the internal parts of the lifters are measured in microns 0.000039". The plunger bores are measured then fitted with a specific plunger, each lifter is hand measured and assembled.

the article was saying that the roller lifters make excellent oil filters so running them makes keeping oil clean a major priority.

I wonder if those Crane lifters are anything like the socalled GM Cadillac roller lifters built with teh lightweight internal components taht are rated to 8500rpm 88958689 for $244 compared with the LS2/LS7 lifters 12499225 for $115 a set.

peace
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Old 12-08-2013, 09:56 AM
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Wow!

Sorry I dont have any advice on your build 4 jaw chuck, but I had to mention how deceptively gnarly that Mazda/Chevy offspring m/b especially @ a redlight... Last thing anybody w/wanna challenge is a 2.800 lbs Import powered by a 400+HP sbc..!! How do u mng. to keep traction w/rear Posi-diff.? (I'm assuming??) m/hve lots of rubber in stock since this beast m/smoke through a pair, everytime you plant it! Good luck on your ralley, I'm from Europe, we love mud @ W.O.T !!
regards, boulonman



Quote:
Originally Posted by 4 Jaw Chuck View Post
Lots of reasons why I want to use 1.6 ratio rockers, primarily I am duplicating the ZZ430 crate motor from GMPP which used the LT4 cam and 1.6 rockers. I already have the proper AL 604 heads which I lucked out on finding cheap.

The GMPP "Hot cam" P/N 846 which was a part of this package has a 0.525" lift with the 1.6 rockers which is max for the stock springs, looked hard for an aftermarket cam that is similar but everything is either way higher or lower lift or too little duration or too much.

I've thought about stepping up to the next level cam P/N 847 but then I need new springs, this is what is used in the ZZ465 crate engine and honestly the car won't need more power for the application.

The car is a FC 1987 Mazda RX7 TurboII with 4.33:1 rear axle, about 2600 pds total. Engine is a late model 4 bolt main Gen I roller block about 10:1 comp with a TH400 trans.

I'm going to use the stock exhaust so it's quiet and a radical cam would give it away, the car will be autocrossed so big cams are useless when precision and a broad flat torque curve is key.

Here's the car, engine will be relocated about 5" rearward with front and mid motor plates.


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Old 12-08-2013, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4 Jaw Chuck View Post
Looking for personal experiences of those who have street driven a brand of roller rockers and can attest to their durability. Obviously a solid cam places more stress on the valvetrain with this style of rocker so I would place more weight on those experiences.

So many choices out there from many different mfgs and quite a few horror stories as well, let's leave the pedestal mount Jesel style models out of this for now as it's out of range for the average rodder.

To be exact I'm looking for a SBC 3/8" post in 1.6 ratio and need a good recommendation from a member of the board who has put some serious street miles on theirs and can say they work without coming apart over time.

It would seem many installs don't have deflectors to keep them and the springs properly cooled and lubricated so I wonder how many of those horror stories are from poor setups.

What say you?
Hi 4waychuck,
Dunno if this'll help, but I snatched a really good looking OEM 68 Chevelle @ an estate sale for a ridiculously low price (let's just say, no more than a dozen gas fill-ups Downside was: I didnt hv. time to chk. it & nobody had a clue, or any info on the car, excpt. w/reblt 6 yrs. ago. I shipped it home, opnd. hood expecting a stock 307, but found a built 383 w/all the good stuff!! During full t/up & gasket rplcmnt. I found 9 of 16 Scorpion 1.5 rlr.rcks. w/hair-line cracks @ very tip.. (the rev lmtr. was set @ 6000rpm) So no telling why, or how long they ran like that (just grateful they didnt grenade my motor!) Here's the kicker, I called Scorpion racing.com, & they honored their life long warranty, no questions asked!! (I had no receipt, they never asked) A fresh set of newly designed blue 1.5 Scorpion rlr.rckrs (much beefier than early gen. careful w/clearance issues) w/recv'd & installed a week latter...Absouletly no problems, & great performance, longetivity is ?? But if the earlier gen. lasted at least 6 years, these newer H.D gen. s/last much longer.
Long story short: Scorpion rlr. rckrs. are midrange price, very quiet for rlr.rckrs, perform well, & most importantly, if they do fail or wear, you get lifetime replcmnts..! Cant beat that!
regards, boulonman

Last edited by boulonman; 12-08-2013 at 10:35 AM. Reason: spelling error.
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Old 12-08-2013, 05:03 PM
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The TurboII models come stock with posi center sections and AL hoods, I estimate on the high side for weight but I am expecting to come in at high 2500 pds once I lose the rear glass and go polycarbonate. The trick will be getting a rear bias as the engine mount kits they sell restore the 50/50 balance just fine but you need more weight in the rear for slalom, hence why early Porche 911's do very well at this sport.

The trick will be the engine mount plates and getting the engine farther back in the chassis, I am hoping for 5" but I'll take what I can get. It has to do double duty as a monocoque stiffener for the front chassis and tie the rear chassis together as well as a custom rear axle stiffener sub chassis to connect engine to rear axle.

Suprisingly the rear axles are capable of handling 400HP as long as you don't abuse it, rotary engines are tough on driveline with high frequency harmonics which require heavy duty components.

When I took the stock rotary engine parts to the scrap dealer minus trans and rotors and turbo it weighed 350 pds, an all AL SBC would actually be lighter than the stock rotary!

It's a pretty common build for these cars as once the motor cooks the cheapest upgrade is a small block either chevy or ford. Mine will be a.little different as I've never seen one that uses engine plates and relocation rearward.

When the competition is a ZL1 vette at over 3000pds and over 600hp, it will be tough to beat...im hoping my smaller size will help out as the tracks are very narrow.

Thanks for the info, nice to know a mfg stands behind their product like that!
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