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Old 06-27-2008, 01:26 PM
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Rust in cylinder bore... do I need to pull the block?

Just noticed this...



Do I need to pull the block for a rebore? The rust has pitted the cylinder.

Thanks,
Ian.

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Old 06-27-2008, 01:41 PM
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yup.. gotta get re bored
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Old 06-27-2008, 02:08 PM
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Bore it, you'll save in the long run.
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Old 06-27-2008, 05:56 PM
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Guys, I haven't got the facilities to pull the block myself and work on it, so will have to get it done at a shop. If I'm gonna do that, I may as well go for a new build using the bored block (which is already 30 over) as a building block. However, that's gonna be big bucks.

So, could I re-assemble with the bore looking like that and be OK for a while, or is that a no-no?

Thanks.
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Old 06-27-2008, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by v8hed
Guys, I haven't got the facilities to pull the block myself and work on it, so will have to get it done at a shop. If I'm gonna do that, I may as well go for a new build using the bored block (which is already 30 over) as a building block. However, that's gonna be big bucks.

So, could I re-assemble with the bore looking like that and be OK for a while, or is that a no-no?

Thanks.

if a ring catches, it'll break and then you might need a new block if the damage is too bad. looks like theres rust and crap on that piston also
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Old 06-27-2008, 10:53 PM
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Those are some deep pits, she needs to go to the next oversize to fix.

You can always hone the block to the next size with lots of elbow grease and a good heavy duty Rigid hone and a 3/4" drill with the block in the car. I've done it a few times when money was tight and the machine shop was hundreds of miles away. Setup a fish pump in a bucket of hydraulic oil under the block once you get the pan off and crank out then feed the oil into the cylinder while you hone away, I recommend you tape off the coolant passges with a few layers of aluminum tape to keep the oil out of them.

You might be surprised how fast you can get 0.008" out of it when your doing the first cylinder. Mind you then you have 7 more to do and that means 7 more hours of honing not to mention the finish hone with fine grit once the block cools down and you have changed the old sock wrapped around the fish pump 10 or so times from being plugged with abrasive and your buddy who has been holding the pump hose is getting tired from leaning over the fender for a whole day heads for home...

However these bones are gettin old and my back isn't what it used to be and thinking about doing that again makes me sore, my uncle told me doing this kind of thing builds character.

I recommend you do it at least once in your life, sure makes that $50 per cylinder seems like a bargain.

Mind you it will run the way it is, but it will leak like a sieve on that cylinder and most likely be down 50-75Hp...she might burn a little fossil lubricant too. Looks like she was stored dry with no lube for a good many years, whats the story on the engine?
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Old 06-28-2008, 05:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4 Jaw Chuck
Those are some deep pits, she needs to go to the next oversize to fix.

You can always hone the block to the next size with lots of elbow grease and a good heavy duty Rigid hone and a 3/4" drill with the block in the car. I've done it a few times when money was tight and the machine shop was hundreds of miles away. Setup a fish pump in a bucket of hydraulic oil under the block once you get the pan off and crank out then feed the oil into the cylinder while you hone away, I recommend you tape off the coolant passges with a few layers of aluminum tape to keep the oil out of them.

You might be surprised how fast you can get 0.008" out of it when your doing the first cylinder. Mind you then you have 7 more to do and that means 7 more hours of honing not to mention the finish hone with fine grit once the block cools down and you have changed the old sock wrapped around the fish pump 10 or so times from being plugged with abrasive and your buddy who has been holding the pump hose is getting tired from leaning over the fender for a whole day heads for home...

However these bones are gettin old and my back isn't what it used to be and thinking about doing that again makes me sore, my uncle told me doing this kind of thing builds character.

I recommend you do it at least once in your life, sure makes that $50 per cylinder seems like a bargain.

Mind you it will run the way it is, but it will leak like a sieve on that cylinder and most likely be down 50-75Hp...she might burn a little fossil lubricant too. Looks like she was stored dry with no lube for a good many years, whats the story on the engine?

Thanks a lot for that (and the story!) Think I'd rather get it done professionally... made ME sore reading that!

I'm embarrassed to admit it, but this was my own doing. I've had the heads off for about 2-weeks. I've been intermittently checking the bores for rust and spraying them with WD-40. Yesterday, I suddently noticed what you see in the pic. At first, I thought it was just surface rust and went to wipe it off with some WD-40 and a clean rag... nope, pitted cylinder. Couldn't believe it. So, that happened in 2-weeks (and despite the car being kept in a garage and the engine being turned over by hand a few times). Lesson learned. If I ever have an engine apart again, I'll lube the cylinder DAILY with an engine oil-soaked rag.

Block is already 30-over, so might be better going for a complete new engine and dropping it in.

Only slight recompense is I had spalling on my lifter faces and wear on the cam lobes (see my other post), so I may have had contamination in the bottom-end from the worn cam anyway.

Cheers,
Ian.
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Old 06-28-2008, 02:50 PM
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That spot has been there for a long time, it didn't develop in 2 weeks with daily oilings. Cylinders simply don't rust that fast. If they did, most new car moors would be junk before the car ever got sold, and anyone who left a car sit for 2 weeks would have a junk motor........
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Old 06-28-2008, 04:11 PM
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I agree, that pitting is too deep to have occured in such short time. I got a bit of "surface rust" in the bores of several cylinders on my 412 over the winter and it was able to be cleaned up with #0000 steelwool and rustbuster solvent, and was nowhere near as deep as the pitting shown in your photos. For reference, I too learned that oil doesn't stay in place on cylinder walls well for any length of time. HOWEVER; heavy grease stays in place very well and keeps moisture and oxygen from getting to the surface to begin the oxidation process...THUS,lesson learned. Since you now know that you're looking at rebore, now's the time to put together an effective plan for what shop(s) and parts to use. Spend lots of time researching and asking questions-as you already are, and you should end up with an engine that doesn't "divorce you" and likewise you'll be happy with for a long time. (Old machine shop and metalcutting adage-"Measure Twice-Cut Once". Enjoy the ride. -Jim
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Old 06-28-2008, 04:51 PM
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rust in the cyl bores

I'm with the rest, quite a bit for a short period of time. Personally, if I was short for funds at the present, I put back together and run it while I found another engine to rebuild and then just swap it out. You said the cam, lifters had some wear. So to me that means the cam bearings are worn, a long with some extra wear on the rods and mains. If you got a good set of heads, pull the old engine, remove the heads and have them reworked and put on the new engine and reinstall it. If you can find a complete engine to build, you might sell your old engine to someone wanting and engine for they old garbage truck and get a few bucks back.
Do you really like the car your working on and want to keep it. Its a lot of work and money to put in something you're going to trade in a short time. You didn't say what it for to go into.
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Old 06-28-2008, 05:06 PM
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Bet I have seen 50 engines like that over the years that just got put back together and run. Out of sight, out of mind. And they all ran well.

Not ideally what I would do for a race engine or my own, but done quite often everywhere.
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Old 06-28-2008, 07:18 PM
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Bear in mind that his cam lobes and lifters went south as well, and that changes the complexity of the situation. Better to pony up the dollars now than have to go thru alot of effort and have to redo it all again in a short time, which is a distinct possibility considering there's camlobe and lifter convex shrapnel in the mix, to at least some degree. If it were just the pitting alone that might be another story, but combined with the other conditions it'd be alot smarter to go to +.040 or even +.060 if needed to get straight/true bores. Should still be able to reuse crank and rods if cleaning/inspection/polishing permits.
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Old 06-28-2008, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by v8hed
I've been intermittently checking the bores for rust and spraying them with WD-40. Yesterday, I suddently noticed what you see in the pic. At first, I thought it was just surface rust and went to wipe it off with some WD-40 and a clean rag... nope, pitted cylinder. Couldn't believe it. So, that happened in 2-weeks

Cheers,
Ian.
WD 40 causes rust.
I did an experiment 12 years ago and found out just what you did.

Think...... If you have really greasy grungy hands, what is the best thing to take the grease off with? spray with WD 40 and wash with water. = clean hands

WD 40 cuts the oil right out of the metal pores and opens everything to rust.

Did you ever spray a squeeky hinge with WD 40? In a week it is twice as bad as before.

The best thing is LPS 3 for open cylinders, or LPS 2 for spraying in spark plug holes.
I just pulled a 302 block from indoor storage that was sprayed in '99 with LPS 3 and the cylinders are perfect and the outside of the block has about 10 places as big as a nickle that have surface rust.
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