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Old 07-05-2008, 01:57 PM
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Rust and epoxy primer Gurus help needed from you guys!

Hello first post here been surfing here for months great site!! !

As im nearing the final prep before I epoxy prime my frame and inside tub im hoping to get a few answers from those in the know.

Im currently restoring a 1985 k5 blazer im at the stage now where i am finishing the stripping of the interior tub and exterior frame and suspension.

The motor tranny and t case are out the front fenders and core support are off. I will be painting the vehicle soon in about 3-5 days and the body is on the frame.

Im using ppg dp epoxy primer which will be top coated with ppg polyurethane.

ive been grinding the rust off with a wire wheel down to bare metal where i can and using naval jelly where i cant .. There are just going to be certain
areas that i will not be able to get to bare metal .. I can hit these with the naval jelly as best as i can but the rust is not totally disloved and what is left is the black neutralized remains .. will i be ok to shoot the epoxy over these areas?

Im having problems with the ppg metal prep ( cant remember the product name but its specificly reccommended by ppg for prep b4 priming) i did as they say wipe the metal surface with the prep then take a clean dry towell and wipe again ..

The two test panels ive done like this both have developed fisheyes.

What am i doing wrong?

Is there a stronger rust removal product than a standard off the shelf naval jelly that people have used with success?

Ive read many conflicting views of painting over the residue left over from naval jelly and ive been spraying my metal surfaces with a very diluted solution of naval jelly to stop flash rusting of pieces ive finished so the entire tub and frame have light residue on it..

Should i just sand then metal prep then prime? Should i Scrub it all down with dawn rinse dry then metal prep then prime? Or just straight metal prep then prime?

Basically im about to prime in a few days i have certain rust areas that i cant make perfect before i prime im jus trying to figure out the best way to prep before i shoot the epoxy on any help would be great and ive been trying to avoid the rust encapsulators like por - 15 , rust bullet ect ect

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Old 07-06-2008, 12:47 PM
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I thought maybe some of the pros would chime in on the DP application and the metal prep, I can't help you there. The rust you can't get to, can this be sandblasted? If the rust is still there, "converted" or not, it is likely to come back later to haunt you. As far as the residue left from the rust remover this needs to be removed before applying epoxy and the best surface for the epoxy to adhere to is a clean sanded surface. If what you are talking about with the rust not being completely dissolved is nothing more than the black stain left from the rust remover and when sanded there is no "brown" rust underneath then you should be OK there as long as it is sanded first.
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Old 07-06-2008, 09:31 PM
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Its more like black stain that if you sand you get back to the rust underneeth ..

Ive torn this blazer apart more than i ever thought i would and now it seems like body off is the obvious choice which ive pretty much decided is the way to go.

Ive also been doing this outside and i mist the bare metal with a diluted solution of navaljelly and water which is great for keeping it from flash rusting but ill have to remove it all b4 paint so im wondering if anyone has a good method for this or a good cleaner ect anything other than water i can literaly watch it rust when i wash it down with water
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Old 07-06-2008, 10:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mp1472
Its more like black stain that if you sand you get back to the rust underneeth ..


That just needs to come off, no other easy answer. I know it seems like removing the rust is sometimes a huge undertaking but it is the only way that you can guantee it will not come back. That brown rust underneath is the same thing you had when you started but you could not see it for the "converted" layer on top of it. That is why those magic rust concoctions only slow down the rust, they do not go all the way through it and the rusting is still going on underneath. If you can get to the areas with a sandblaster, even a suction type, then you should be able to blast the spots clean and then a coat of epoxy will put an end to the rusting. As far as the residue just reapply the rust remover ( a liquid type like OSPHO would be better for this) let it sit a couple of minutes then rinse it off with water, if the frame is warm enough it should dry fast enough to prevent any serious rust from forming. Just sand or brush any flash rust that forms and don't worry about brown stains from flash rust.
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Old 07-07-2008, 05:50 AM
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I use phosphoric acid based rust removal products often and when the rust is gone I rinse completely with water and before the water dries I apply waterborne wax and grease remover or isopropyl alcohol then wipe dry. Using this method I keep flash rusting to a minimum as the alchol helps me get the panel dried fast. Then I sand to clean bright metal before priming.

When you're working on frames sandblasting is the only way to go IMO. $200 should cover the blasting at most blasting facilities and can take as little as 1hr depending on how large the equipment is. Or you could buy or rent the tools and do it yourself.

I wouldn't prime over that naval jelly residue, possible adhesion problems if you do. A steel surface that's been properly etched with phospheric acid should provide excellent adhesion if your primer is compatible but I've seen too many instances where there's been problems so priming over clean bright bare steel is the only option for me.
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Old 07-07-2008, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baddbob
I use phosphoric acid based rust removal products often and when the rust is gone I rinse completely with water and before the water dries I apply waterborne wax and grease remover or isopropyl alcohol then wipe dry. Using this method I keep flash rusting to a minimum as the alchol helps me get the panel dried fast. Then I sand to clean bright metal before priming.

When you're working on frames sandblasting is the only way to go IMO. $200 should cover the blasting at most blasting facilities and can take as little as 1hr depending on how large the equipment is. Or you could buy or rent the tools and do it yourself.

I wouldn't prime over that naval jelly residue, possible adhesion problems if you do. A steel surface that's been properly etched with phospheric acid should provide excellent adhesion if your primer is compatible but I've seen too many instances where there's been problems so priming over clean bright bare steel is the only option for me.
im with you there on the bare metal part ive decided to go body off so hopefully i can get all the rust off now however what concers me is seams and nooks and crannies that mey be hiding un seen rust ...

anyone have fisheye problems or know how to eliminate this problem when using a w and g cleaner??
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Old 07-07-2008, 11:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mp1472
im with you there on the bare metal part ive decided to go body off so hopefully i can get all the rust off now however what concers me is seams and nooks and crannies that mey be hiding un seen rust ...

anyone have fisheye problems or know how to eliminate this problem when using a w and g cleaner??
Somewhere in this very forum is a warning about fisheye coming from silicon in cleaners and detergents. Maybe that clean cloth you used to wipe it down had some silicon left over from the laundry? I remember the commenter saying he used "Old Dutch" cleaner instead of Comet or other powder, because it did not have silicon (or borax or whatever it was that's common in lots of cleaners). A search for Dutch and fisheye might turn that thread up.

I'm not a painter: currently fighting bugs and runs while attempting to get some PPG EPX-900 on my wife's car. She's trusting enough to let me use it as a guinea pig to learn how to paint. After sanding to bare metal, I started masking and sanding but never could get ahead of the re-rusting (typical relative humidity here is 80%+) until I wiped the whole thing down with phosphoric acid (a liquid meant for swimming pool maintenance). This stuff doesn't have the sulfuric acid that Naval jelly has. I couldn't find anything objectionable in the ingredients, so I just wiped the car down 3 times with naphtha after the phosphoric acid and started shooting. Hope it sticks.

[Edited to add:]
Found the thread about fisheye and cleaners:

Soap and water wash

Last edited by grouch; 07-07-2008 at 11:33 PM. Reason: found info
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