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Old 09-06-2008, 02:51 PM
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Rust treatment products

I'm new here and have been reading a few old threads...some very long old threads. Seems the general consensus is to sandblast/patch/epoxy for permanent results. I'm a very amateur mechanic with limited tools and limited experience (and, unfortunately, limited funds). I don't disagree that "miracle cure" rust products probably won't be the best way to do it (ideal case), but also feel sometimes it might be the only way.

The major rust problem I'm dealing with right now is between two layers of sheetmetal that are spot-welded together. Physically removing the rusty areas will be very difficult and expensive. I want to do as much work as possible myself, and don't think I have the skills to do it.

So, long story short, I have ordered a few different rust treatment products and I'm hoping someone can offer advice or experience.

I've tried POR-15 and find it to be a weird product, possibly because I'm not using it correctly? I've applied it over rust bubbles on exterior paint (temporary fix until I can get to the rest of the body). I first cleaned the surface, then ground down to clean metal, cleaned again, then applied the POR-15. It tends to brush on smoothly, but then a few minutes later, small air bubbles will rise to the surface. It dries hard and seems like a durable finish but the label says it isn't UV stable.

I've now ordered some Eastwood Rust Encapsulator (saw an article on their website comparing it to POR). Also ordered some MasterSeries silver primer from http://www.masterseriesct.com/home.html

Because of the location of the rust I am trying to treat (it's hidden between two layers of metal with about an 1/8-1/4" gap), it would be impossible to clean or sandblast prior to painting.

Does anyone have experience with either of these products?

Thanks!
Scot

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Old 09-06-2008, 03:41 PM
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I don't care what anyone tells you no rust "treatment" will do a darn thing to stop the rust between those panels. Even IF that crap works at all it can not somehow manage to magically creep down in between the panels and it can not do anything to stop rust it can't touch! There is simply no easy solution to fixing rust no matter how much some people want to believe it and the problem you are talking about is the biggest reason these "magic" rust cures are generally worthless for body sheetmetal. If the rust is out in the open where the solution can get to it then usually the rust can be removed if however it is sandwiched between two panels where you can't get to it to remove it then that stuff can not reach it either.
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Old 09-07-2008, 03:09 AM
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Thanks, I figured that that's what I was going to hear. Discouraging, but I believe it's accurate info. I just thought of a way I might be able to access the rust, but it's going to be a challenge for me and bad news if I screw it up.

Okay...another question about some more magic stuff...anyone use or tried ACF-50? It's not a paint, but rather a penetrating oil type product. The guys in the shop at work fog it inside airplane wings to stop/prevent corrosion. I guess it is designed for aluminum but their website claims it settles into corrosion spots, disperses the water, and then clings to the metal surface...stopping the corrosion from getting worse.

I'm thinking clean the rust as best I can (basically can't clean it), paint with some sort of moisture-curing rust paint...then finally apply ACF-50 periodically to prevent the rust from growing.
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Old 09-07-2008, 06:12 AM
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Can you post a pic or two of the bad spot?
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Old 09-07-2008, 06:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotY
Okay...another question about some more magic stuff...anyone use or tried ACF-50? It's not a paint, but rather a penetrating oil type product. The guys in the shop at work fog it inside airplane wings to stop/prevent corrosion. I guess it is designed for aluminum but their website claims it settles into corrosion spots, disperses the water, and then clings to the metal surface...stopping the corrosion from getting worse.

I'm thinking clean the rust as best I can (basically can't clean it), paint with some sort of moisture-curing rust paint...then finally apply ACF-50 periodically to prevent the rust from growing.
You cannot paint over or anywhere even close to where you apply this product.
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Old 09-07-2008, 06:34 AM
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Also if you apply by fogger, you might not be able to paint in the same building without getting fisheyes and other problems.
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Old 09-07-2008, 07:05 AM
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Some pics might help. The way I deal with this type of rusting, at least in a situation where the panels are not replaced, is to drill out the spot welds and separate the seams so I can sandblast the rust, apply 3M weld through coating then re-weld.
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Old 09-07-2008, 09:15 AM
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My thing is, as Old Red said, we need photos. There are many places on a car where after correcting the REASON it rusted (inner panel pinch welds rusted because the rear window leaked for years) is eliminated, there is no real reason to "remove" all the rust that exists anyway.

It depends on the car and the owners expectations of course. But there are MANY places on a car that damn it, there is GOING to be a little rust. The cause of that rust has been eliminated and it will not rust any more, so you leave it there like a benign tumor. Surgury would be more dangerous than the tumor so we leave it there.

Is it simple surface rust? Is it causing a serious integrety problem?

Where is this rust?

Brian
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Old 09-08-2008, 12:00 AM
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Hi guys,

Thanks for the input...really appreciate it as it's helping me figure out what to do. As I mentioned in my "intro to this forum" post, I don't actually own a hotrod. It's a 20 year old truck that's got really thin sheetmetal and is prone to rust. I do have an interest in old vehicles, especially old trucks and hope one day to locate and purchase a big ol' truck to work on. Anyway, I do believe I have the same values as you all when it comes to restoration but, unfortunately, I don't have the time or space to do things the right way all the time...although I try really hard and spend way more money than necessary.

Anyway...here's a picture of the problem area. It's not an actual picture of my vehicle, but it's the same part so you can get an idea of what I'm dealing with. The piece is spot-welded to the body and is used to mount the fender flares. I'm not sure how the metal is prepped under there from the factory, but they all rust in the gap. The arrow points to the gap between the two adjoining metal pieces where the rust is. I'm sure there's more under there that I can't see.

Re. the ACF-50, I figured after painting as best I could (i.e. probably won't paint that area again any time soon), I could just spray some in the cracks and maybe that will "protect" the areas I couldn't get paint on. I guess it's probably not a good idea unless there's never any hope of painting again.

Back to the fender flare mounts...I thought I could drill the spot welds and pull the pieces off, but they usually end up bending pretty badly out of shape since they're so thin and I'm not sure how tough it's going to be, trying to make everything straight again.

Question...I've seen many mention of "sandblasting then epoxy" and am wondering if you cleaned the metal manually (with a sanding wheel or scotchbrite type wheel in a die grinder) and got rid of all the rust, is there really any difference between doing that and sandblasting?

Another question...what is the consensus regarding acid type converters? My dad and I used to use Ospho (wire brush rust, apply, let dry, wire brush again, then paint...we never rinsed it off) with good results but this was on thick steel and marine grade epoxy paint. Is Ospho something that can be used on a car?

Thanks, Scot
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Last edited by ScotY; 09-09-2008 at 12:30 PM.
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Old 09-08-2008, 02:02 AM
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P.O.R. Stands for Paint Over Rust. If you cleaned to bare metal then you need something else. por 15 is designed so you brush off the heavy scale and apply. I also believe that by starving metal of oxygen it will stop the rust. Which is what por 15 does. If you go to bare metal then you might as well prime and paint it. I know this is an age old arguement but this is what i believe.
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Old 09-08-2008, 11:23 PM
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Okay, that didn't work. I'll try and post the picture again...
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Old 09-09-2008, 03:42 AM
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Just read through this entire LONG thread!
RUST..What are the acceptable permanent ways to get rid of it?
I'm so glad I found this forum...what a wealth of information!

Seems the general consensus is that:

-Use only as a last resort
-Clean loose rust but do apply to a rusty surface
-May experience problems with topcoats

Considering POR-15 and similar products, is it safe to say that because they're moisture cured that they will prevent the rust from growing? I would be more than thrilled if it stopped the rust from getting worse until I can repair it properly at a later date.

Assuming one can live with the rust that's there (i.e. rust won't be converted/removed/dissolved), would epoxy be any better? If so, why?

Thanks!
Scot
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Old 09-09-2008, 07:08 PM
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Here's my rust...
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Old 09-10-2008, 04:17 AM
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I've found that trying to temporarily cover rust with POR 15 doesn't work at all.

It only sticks to rough rusty surfaces. When you cover those areas, you will naturally overlap the bare smooth metal somewhere. The POR will lift at these areas and start peeling or allow moisture to go underneath it.

For temporary without cutting and welding all you could do like you mentioned earlier is to try to "control" the rust,
I would wire wheel all the rust off that I could and then use rust remover on it.Watch out for the instructions. I just recently used this stuff and it said that it leaves a black oxide that you can paint over. I didn't buy that line of BS and hit it with the wire wheel again and brown rust dust was flying from underneath this "paintable" black oxide coating.I went at it a few times and got down to real bare metal.

Then hit it with epoxy and paint.

You could try using some kind of rust inhibiting spray in the cracks but its inevitable that the cancer will keep growing.

You could try some seam sealer to keep any water from getting in between the two pieces as this would keep it dry and without moisture it won't grow.
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Old 09-10-2008, 04:19 AM
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Double post

Last edited by 123pugsy; 09-10-2008 at 04:34 AM.
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