[Riot Racing]

id like to start a technical discuss on rust treatment and repair.
the issues to address would be:

treatment: chemical cleaners (that work), sanding techniques and when sandblasting is a must.

repair: we know certain section can be cut and removed, but maybe we can load this thread with links to companies that sell entire replacement panels for the common restorer cars.
Other repair techniques

my questions: In terms of proper repair for strength and cosmetic purposes.
CAN pinholes be patched with a wire feed welder (mig or flux cored)? I was thinking of filling in the empty spots with the filler metal and sanding and preping to make things look decent. Im worried about the quality of the paint in those areas.

What about from the inside of the panel (assuming this can be accessed) welding a thin sheet of steel sheet metal to fill space then use a wire feed welder to fill the pinholes or spots with some light bondo work to keep a nice surface finish? Could the bondo work be replaced with lead work or soldering work?

My biggest things is finding a supplier for replacement body panels and to know if some of the techniques i mentioned work? I'm also interested to see what products are people using with success to remove rust and more importantly, is that a permanent fix?

[OneMoreTime]

Check out the wiki at the top of the page..

http://crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/Rust

lots more info there as well..

Sam

[Riot Racing]

Originally Posted by OneMoreTime

Check out the wiki at the top of the page..

http://crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/Rust

lots more info there as well..

Sam

I guess that helps

[bluestang67]

I have used a product called ALL METAL it will resist moisture. This is simular to plastic but uses a epoxy hardner to cure . If you wait to long it will take a grinder to get it down. I placed this where original lead was used and did a light coat of plastic over it.

[brian0605]

POR-15 I can't say enough good things about this product. http://www.por15.com
http://www.por15.com/bPOR-15sup-sup-...2&category=140
I just submitted a post about this on another thread. But I will share my experience with this product.It is a great product, don't get it on your skin if you do, get it off immediately or you'll wear it off. You can brush it on, no need to spray it. You will need to top coat it if it's going to be exposed to sunlight or it's in an area that you are going to paint. Right after you finish brushing it on let it just tack off then spray it with a good primer. If you let it dry the por-15 is hard to sand and the primer doesn't want to stick as well as it should.Also do not open the can!!! Puncture a small hole in the top and one in the side just below the top.Then install sheet metal screws. If you open the can and don't use all of it and put the lid back on IT WILL DRY OUT. It doesn't take as much of this paint as you think it will, start out small till you figure out how well it covers. They make a starter kit that is not real expensive and will cover quite a large area and if you only need to do a few spots it might be all you need. You can use fiberglass mat (strand type NOT weave kind) wet the surface to be repaired with por-15 then start applying the fiberglass and using the paint brush continue to dampen the fiber glass and push it down and into place, this kind of repair can be done on floor boards or trunks or any where that you won't see when covered. It is strong as nails. I have even used a paper towel as a repair section in an inner fender well under the battery tray. The metal was totally gone in an area about the size of your fist maybe a little larger in the curved portion. We wire brushed the area to remove any loose rust scale and dirt, then wiped it down with lacquer thiner,then brushed the area on both sides with por-15. We then took a paper towel and cut it down so the edges of the towel were about 2in larger than the hole, then carefully painted the towel till coated with the por-15. then carefully applied the wet paper towel to the inner fender well from the outside . When the por-15 is still slightly tacky carefully sprayed with a sandable primer. Once everything was dried we scuffed up the engine side and applied a skim coat of "bondo" (whatever brand you use is OK) shaped sanded and primed and painted as normal. You can't tell where the repair was made and it is still intact and no signs of rust. The wheel well side we coated with undercoat as it was from the factory. Our body man cut out all of the floor boards and replaced them with new metal, we then painted the floor board with the por-15 and fiber glass mat and soaked it with a coat of the por-15. Same for the trunk. One of the good things about the por-15 is that you don't have to have it down to shiny metal, just remove the loose scale and dirt and this stuff will stick. Just remember that if you are going to paint over it you need to spray it with primer before it hardens, the por-15 and the primer kind of fuse together and you will able to sand it and top coat it. By the way did I say I like por-15!!! This is the car we used it on.http://hotrodders.com/gallery/showph.../cat/500/page/
http://hotrodders.com/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/25134
Brian

[brian0605]

Here are the instructions the supply.




POR-15 RUST PREVENTIVE PAINT
POR-15®
Restoration Products Application Information
POR-15/NR
POR-15 Inc. P.O. Box 1235 Morristown, NJ 07962
P: (800) 457-6715 / F: (973) 887-8007 / Web: www.por15.com
1. Never open the POR-15 can until you are
ready to paint.
2. Make sure surface to be painted is
bone-dry dry. Use a hairdryer if necessary.
3. You must use Metal-Ready fi rst if you are
painting POR15 on new steel, galvanized
metal , aluminum, or any smooth metal
surface.
4. Do not apply POR-15 to a “tacky” surface.
Wait till the fi rst coat is dry to the touch before
applying a second coat of POR-15
5. Do not paint directly from the POR-15
can unless you are going to use up all the
paint in one session. Stir contents of can
thoroughly, then dispense a quantity of POR-
15 into a separate container and seal can
immediately using plastic food wrap between
lid and groove of can. If can is sealed metalto-
metal with paint in the groove, can will be
sealed permanently.
Best Method: keep groove free of paint by
using coffee scoop or similar device to
dispense.
Note: Leftover paint should not be put back
in can as this will shorten shelf life and might
cause pressure to build up in can, causing
the lid to pop off. Refrigerate unused POR-
15 for longer shelf life.
6. If your job had to be degreaed or cleaned ,
you must use Metal-Ready before applying
POR-15.
7. If you are perspiring and a bead of sweat
drops into the POR-15 can, the paint is ruined
and should be thrown out. It won’t stick
properly.
8. Use POR-15 in well ventilated areas only.
We recommend the use an organic vapor
particulate respirator, NIOSH/MSHA
approved, when applying POR-15. If you are
spray painting, you must use an airsupplied
respirator.
9. Never mix other paints with POR-15. Never
try to add color to POR-15.
10. POR-15 should not be applied over other
paints. It is UV sensitive and must be topcoated
with an opaque paint if left exposed to
the sun.
11. Never shake up a can of POR-15. It
should always be stirred.

[adtkart]

The ONLY way to treat rust is to REMOVE IT. Covering it with POR 15 or any other product will not fix the problem. It will simply cover it up. this has been covered many times on this and most other forums.

Aaron

[shine]

what aron said

[brian0605]

Whatever?! Not everyone has access to the tig and mig welder in there home garage, nor the money to pay someone to do it. You know there is more than one way to do something. If YOU don't care for it that's fine just don't tell ME that I'M wrong for doing it. I know what was repaired and how it was repaired on the car I posted pics of. I did'nt say build an entire car of the stuff. If you read what I said I said the panels were replaced in the floor boards and were coated with it as a PREVENTATIVE. The only place I said I used it to make a repair was a place that was out of sight and most of the surrounding metal was intact. If you use the stuff like the instructions say IT WILL STOP THE RUST. No it won't magically remove a rusty panel, but is better than just grinding it down to shiny metal and applying green kitty hair body filler, and HOPING it won't come back any sooner than 2 years. "The ONLY way to treat rust is to REMOVE IT. Covering it with POR 15 or any other product will not fix the problem. It will simply cover it up. this has been covered many times on this and most other forums."
This is like saying it's my way or the highway, and yes when someone says that I get defensive. Now with that said, Have a nice day. Brian

[Rambo_The_Dog]

my questions: In terms of proper repair for strength and cosmetic purposes.

CAN pinholes be patched with a wire feed welder (mig or flux cored)? [YES, if possible use a sheet of copper for backing to prevent blow-thru. My only caveat here is that the surrounding metal may be thin and prone to rust thru - so really probe the are first with a pick or hammer to see if "pin-welding" is the best choice] I was thinking of filling in the empty spots with the filler metal and sanding and preping to make things look decent. Im worried about the quality of the paint in those areas.

What about from the inside of the panel (assuming this can be accessed) welding a thin sheet of steel sheet metal to fill space then use a wire feed welder to fill the pinholes or spots with some light bondo work to keep a nice surface
finish? Could the bondo work be replaced with lead work or soldering work? [Sure, but this type of repair will lead to more problems. By sandwiching another piece in behind you will allow an area to trap moisture and even the welding process will start the oxidation process. Using "weld-thru" primer would help but this is not the correct repair process...in this case cut-and-replace.]

I've used both POR15 and Eastwoods Rust Encapsulator products. If used correctly these can inhibit but not kill, or prevent rust from returning.

I favor the Eastwood product because it can be left as a topcoat as it has UV protectants that POR15 does not...and the Eastwood product can be thinned with a good quality lacquer thinner...POR15 requires a "special POR type" thinner.

[oldred]

Just yesterday I looked at a 60 Chevy that a guy wanted me to weld some patches in and I don't think he was too impressed with por 15. While I know any product can fail from improper use this guy claims to have followed the instructions to the letter and in most places it seems to have worked just fine HOWEVER there are several spots where the POR has peeled and there is rust underneath in these areas and then there are the seams, this is where he has the biggest problem. Bottom line here is that he spent over $4000 on body work and paint and now just 2 years later he is right back where he started from. My own experience with POR 15 has been that it worked ok but then that was on a freshly sandblasted rustfree floor, I now think epoxy would have been better. Since I retired I do quite a bit of welding for the local rodders here and I see a lot of rust and the more "treated" rust, with POR 15 or whatever, that I see the less impressed I am with it. POR can do nothing for rust in seams because it can not "treat" rust that it can't reach such as between overlapping joints where the biggest problems are anyway. I found this place looking for a "magic" cure for rust and since I came here I have learned a LOT and one of the things I have learned is that there is no "magic bullet" that cures rust because just covering rust does not eliminate it and no matter if the rust is "converted", "encapsulated" or whatever the shysters choose to say their product does it is still there only covered up and your car is STILL RUSTY! IMO cut it out and throw it away because there are no halfway measures when dealing with rust and not being able to afford the equipment to do it right is no excuse because having to redo a failed job is going to cost a hell of a lot more than a MIG welder.

[Arrowhead]

I love how everyone is so black and white on this subject. If people here in the rust belt cut out every piece of metal that had rust, there would be no car left. You have to understand even if there is not rust though, there probably still surface rust where you can't see it. There has to be some happy medium. I agree that badly rusted areas should be cut out and replaced, but there must be an acceptable way of treating what is left to keep it from spreading. To just say "cut it out and replace it" is just rediculous.

As for Por-15, I'm not overly impressed. Don't know how it will be long term, but it seems like a lot of the product is wasted just by using it. It builds up a hard shell inside the can, paint brushes and rollers have to be thrown out, unused product can't re reused, etc. A lot of waste for the price.

[Ed ke6bnl]

Originally Posted by Arrowhead

I love how everyone is so black and white on this subject. If people here in the rust belt cut out every piece of metal that had rust, there would be no car left. You have to understand even if there is not rust though, there probably still surface rust where you can't see it. There has to be some happy medium. I agree that badly rusted areas should be cut out and replaced, but there must be an acceptable way of treating what is left to keep it from spreading. To just say "cut it out and replace it" is just rediculous.

As for Por-15, I'm not overly impressed. Don't know how it will be long term, but it seems like a lot of the product is wasted just by using it. It builds up a hard shell inside the can, paint brushes and rollers have to be thrown out, unused product can't re reused, etc. A lot of waste for the price.

I have to agree with you and I have tig mig arc gas and plasma but I make my decission on the time cost value BIG BUT I live in sunny california and I have some surface rust on my dually work truck and it will stay that way without much change year after year 17 years now. On my street rod I will be replacing the rusted out areas mainly where the truck sat b4 I got it with a borken window that left water on the floorboards and a the usual at the running board and bed floor/sides. Long term remove and replace what are the long term plans for the vehicle. good luck ED

[brian0605]

Originally Posted by Arrowhead

I love how everyone is so black and white on this subject. If people here in the rust belt cut out every piece of metal that had rust, there would be no car left. You have to understand even if there is not rust though, there probably still surface rust where you can't see it. There has to be some happy medium. I agree that badly rusted areas should be cut out and replaced, but there must be an acceptable way of treating what is left to keep it from spreading. To just say "cut it out and replace it" is just rediculous.

As for Por-15, I'm not overly impressed. Don't know how it will be long term, but it seems like a lot of the product is wasted just by using it. It builds up a hard shell inside the can, paint brushes and rollers have to be thrown out, unused product can't re reused, etc. A lot of waste for the price.

AMEN! now to address the problem of the stuff getting hard in the can. You never open the can!! puncture two small holes one in the lid and one in the side just below the rim on the opposite side of the one in the lid. Then install sheet metal screws and only pour out what you need in a disposable cup and immediately put the screws back in. As far as the brushes if you clean them with lacquer thinner occasionally while you are doing a large area and then immediately after you are finished the brushes are reusable. Now about the seams. Your right if you can't get the product down inside the seam it probably will rust if it is exposed to water. We have just been lucky I guess. We coated and sealed every seam we could get to on BOTH sides with POR. I will repeat what I said again we TREATED the metal that was replaced on both sides. Yes we had the fender tips replaced,floor boards,rockers and QTR extensions. The only thing I said that we actually repaired with the stuff was an inner fender well beneath the old battery tray (which we relocated to the trunk). The trunk rim is made from two pieces spot welded together. This area was loaded with surface rust and pits, however no rust holes. It was wire brushed then treated with por 15 on BOTH sides, and was sprayed with primer while the por was still tacky. It was then allowed to dry overnight. It was then sanded with 120 grit and then had dyna-glass carefully applied.(painstakingly I might add) Then was finished with a thin coat of Dyna-lite filler. Then it was primed and sanded to a final paintable surface. Now that the car is in it's color the trunk rim is so smooth the water runs out like it's on a rail. Especially since it is waxed along with the car. I don't care what anyone says, Rusty metal will not continue to rust if it is cleaned and no longer allowed to get moisture. It takes a lot of time and effort to coat and seal every nook and cranny with POR. Yes I too have seen it peel. And we didn't do EXACTLY what it said to do. It peeled off of the rearend housing. The metal was impregnated with gear oil and we cleaned it several times with lacquer thinner,then applied the por. It peeled off in whole sheets. Guess what our fault, didn't use the proper metal prep that they say to use. I personally like the stuff and the nay sayers can do as they like, and I will do the same. Brian

[oldred]

Arrow, The flaw to what you are saying is "there must be a way to treat what is left to keep it from coming back" No matter how much we would like to have such a product so far it seems that one does not yet exist in spite of the claims. Sorry but if you leave rust it is a half way measure and rust covering products have no place in a quality job. I agree that there are many cars that are so rusty that it is impractical to replace all the rusty metal and on these there may not be another practical method of repair but at the risk of offending some if the car is that bad then you have a major problem that may simply not be repairable by any practical means, in this case this stuff may be better than nothing but you must consider what you will have when finished and weigh the costs. Rusty metal is SERIOUSLY damaged metal just the same as bent or torn metal and maybe even worse since it very well may be even harder to repair and using some "converter" to cover and hide rust, even if it slows it down, is really no different than filling deep dents or holes with filler. The problem here is that this crap is all too often used to "repair" panels that could be truly repaired by the proper means by someone either looking for an easy way out or by someone who was simply misled by the snake-oil manufacturers claims. The 60 Chevy I mentioned is a shinning example (and the main reason that compelled me to speak up here) and if this guy decides to let me replace his rusted metal, the way it should have been done the first time, then I am confident that he will end up with a solid rebuild that is going to last a heck of a lot longer than the two years the last one did. Any way you look at it POR 15 and like products may hide and even slow rust but you will still have a rusty car. There is nothing ridiculous about "cutting it out and replacing it" that is the proper way to do it.