RUST..What are the acceptable permanent ways to get rid of it? - Page 10 - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
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  #136 (permalink)  
Old 11-15-2004, 12:46 PM
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barry-No doubt about it thats the way things should be done. I am doing my second mustang which is a nearly rust free car but the first one required floor pans,cowl vents, frame rails and a few other panels. Most of these parts only had surface rust with some pitting but no holes but I replaced them anyway. I even went so far as to remove the door skins and drill out the spot welds to remove the internal brackets to get the rust from between the brackets and door metal. Any place I found rust I took the time eliminate it. Was this time consuming and a lot of work? Yes it was but not as bad as one might think it would be and now my car is as rust free as I could hope for. I suppose I could have treated the rust with coroless from eastwood which was the hot, end-all miracle rust cure at the time(wonder where it is today?) but I was skeptical even then. I firmly belive that it takes less time to do something right than it takes to do it over.

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  #137 (permalink)  
Old 11-15-2004, 12:56 PM
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Something I learned long ago, speaking of floor & trunk pans,
by the time you screw around trying to fix them its a lot easier to replace them. Don't know the year of your stang but just got a call from a body-shop that a customer just gave the shop a 64
to settle a bill on another car. Going to look at it Tuesday.
Not going to tell my wife as she may give bad advice, like don't buy it!
One can never have enough junk laying around the house!
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  #138 (permalink)  
Old 11-15-2004, 01:03 PM
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POR-15

Sealer and painted, its the way to go
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  #139 (permalink)  
Old 11-15-2004, 01:50 PM
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Barry-Both my mustangs are 64-1/2 ,did'nt look for that year in particular it is just what I found. One is a bone stock 6 cyl coupe but the other has a 90 model 5.0 with FI and a T-5 five speed that I installed back in 91. I went all out on it with power disc brakes,power steering,handling kit,the works, that one is my daily driver and it has been a heck of a lot of fun!
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  #140 (permalink)  
Old 11-15-2004, 01:55 PM
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You read my mind! I have access to a low mile cobra engine 4.6
and at the moment I don't have any quarter mile play toys.
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  #141 (permalink)  
Old 11-15-2004, 07:13 PM
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You guys have hit on something that has gotten me into trouble. The pro restoraton guys hate when I say this, but I am sorry it is what I have experianced.

The average home hobbyest restorer can and many times does a better job that the "pro restoration" shop. Restoring a car is just a number of steps. Each and every home hobbyest is totally capible of doing each of these steps if broken down small enough.
Now, to work in a collision shop trying to keep up with the bosses demands on speed, that is a whole different story. But to have all the time in the world to do a restoration, the home hobbyest is totally capible of doing a 100 point show car. In fact, as I said, many times they do a better job than the "pro".
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  #142 (permalink)  
Old 11-15-2004, 08:19 PM
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My $.02 ......

Steel does not need water to rust. It just needs oxygen. Water helps accelerate the process, though, and often carries corrosive agents with it (like salt, here in Michigan or near the ocean, or mild acids precipitated from the atmosphere). That's why a freshly prepared surface can rust quickly. Elevated temperatures greatly speed the process, too.

There is more than one cause for corrosion that can show up as rust, including electrolytic and stress corrosion, as well as simple oxidation that we normally think of. In any case, the corrosion changes the crystalline structure of the metal, that's why it shows up as pitting. My guess about the sndblasted parts on why the pitted areas showed rust first would be that there are two things going on; first, if it were blasted with steel shot rather than sand, it may have peened the surface with particles too large to get into the pitted areas, leaving some rust, and second, the crystalline structure of the pitted area exposes a lot more surface area to soak up oxygen atoms. I suspect this is why pitting occurs rather than an even coating of rust. I guess if the rust is truly rempoved from a pitted area, it has to be coated to keep the oxygen out pretty quickly.

Iron molecules have two stages of oxidation, either taking on one or two atoms of oxygen per atom of iron. The red stuff has two atoms of oxygen, and the black stuff has one. The black stuff is at a lower energy state than virgin iron, and therefore is somewhat resistant to taking on any more oxygen, that's why some acid treatments, like parkerizing etc., give corrosion resistance even though they are actually oxidizing the metal.

Corrosion resistant primers can either just coat the metal to block oxygen from attacking it, or they can act as sacrificial anodes, incorporating a more reactive metal. The metals in the periodic chart form a series 'the electrical series', according not just to their atomic weight, but also their reactivity. If two metals are put together, in the presence of some corrosive that can carry ions such as salt water, they will develop an electrical current, and the more reactive one will be eaten away first, but both can be attacked. That is what I mean by sacrificial anode. (And that's why aluminum step rails fall off vans and suburbans, leaving gaping holes where they were bolted on!)

Galvanizing coats the steel with a layer of zinc. Because of this behavior, the steel will not begin to rust until virtually all of the zinc is oxidized. And the zinc oxide that forms is pretty corrosion resistant all by itself. On aircraft, corrosion can be pretty life - threatening, so on little spam cans like the ones I fly, the aluminum panels are a sandwich -- strong alloy inside, and pure aluminum outside. The pure aluminum is so reactive, that it forms a layer of aluminum oxide immediately on exposure to air. Fortunately the aluminum oxide is so inert, that a layer one or two molecules thick prevents any further corrosion. That is, until the metal is stressed or exposed to salty, moist air. The manufacturers protect it with zinc chromate primer, which protects the base metal electrolytically, as I described above. Every time you drill a hole through that material, you are supposed to protect the internal alloy you just exposed, preferably with zinc chromate, or expect to be sorry later.

Anyway, the treatments I am aware of to get rid of rust will either mechanically remove it, or chemically bind with it. The chemical binders can only react with the rust they come into contact with, so if it it thick, I would be doubtful as to their effectiveness.

As far as protection, metal - based primers work well, but they aren't always compatible with finishes, sometimes there has to be an intermediate primer to adhere to the first coat, that the finish coat will stick to. More opportunities for failure, there, but better corrosion protection. The epoxy primers and finishes I have used on industrial equipment are the best stuff I've ever seen -- stick to the surface like nothing else, impervious to corrosive environments, and tough as nails. No good for automotive finishes, though. I've thought of using that epoxy primer on the undersides of cars, I bet it would last a long, long time. I never did it myself, though, because I don't figure it will stick to the rust that's already there.

I sure wish there were a magic answer. Mother nature just never gives up.
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  #143 (permalink)  
Old 11-15-2004, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by MARTINSR
The average home hobbyest restorer can and many times does a better job that the "pro restoration" shop. In fact, as I said, many times they do a better job than the "pro".
I have said before, i am fully capable of screwing up my stuff as well as any one else is. I'll be derned if i'm going to pay someone else to do it.

and it comes down to love. you will put more love and care into something you do for yourself than anyone else would.


Pantload, that sure wasn't.
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  #144 (permalink)  
Old 11-15-2004, 09:08 PM
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Pantload, I would say that is more than two cents, it closer to a buck and a half.

I love that stuff, and I am damn proud of myself, I understand what you said!

I am trying to fully understand the etch primer vs epoxy issue.
Do you have any knowledge on the etch primers and epoxy primers commonly found in the autobody industry?

If you do, what do you think about the issue?
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  #145 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2004, 05:44 PM
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WOW... I haven't checked on this thread for awhile...lots of typing going on. Seeings how the topic is rust repair I gotta show a rust repair from the past. The link below will take you to a photo of a rear qtr. section of a Model A Ford that got a lead job rust repair. Lead was gobbed in the rust holes just like folks do today with Bondo. Kinda wild..I never thought about rust repair in the old days till I came across this!!

http://www.autobodyoldcars.com/lead
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  #146 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2004, 05:50 PM
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An apology to BarryK

The most important thing I'm going to put in this post, I want to get right out front and foremost,
I am issuing my genuine apologies to BarryK,
We obviously "got off on the wrong foot", and yes he is right,
I was the fault of that, BIG boo-boo on my part, and I admit it.
I should have taken the time to lay a better ground work for that controversial advice that I gave in my inital post.

For what its worth at this point, I am going to do my best to make amends for my impolite attacks on Barry's integrity.
He has a thousand or more times experience than I have in the auto body refinishing field, and any one interested in producing a first class restoration, or an award winning show car will do well to follow his recommendations.

I have made some snide remarks about him being a sales represenative for major paint manufacture(s) (not that I know that for a fact, but inferred it from his experience)
If he is a good sales represenative for the business(s) that employ him, it IS something to be proud of, and I am now ashamed of myself for implying otherwise, also for implying that trying to push products for profit, was the reason for his bias.
I now truly DO NOT believe that to be the case,

And I'll now say that I think he's an honest man, trying to give the very best advice that he can based on his years of experience and expertise.

And I also want to extend my sincere apologies to MartinSR , and to everyone else who has posted in this thread, and to the readers here that have only read these things.

I am not going to toot my own horn here, but some few might care to know why I'm issuing this apology.
Retiring after 34 years in the workforce is not an easy thing to adjust emotionally, reduced income, with the realization that too many life-long dreams are never going to see fulfillment, can lead to internal frustrations that manifest themselves in bizarre ways.
I had thought I was well adjusted to my new place in the scheme of things, but I guess my suppressed emotional baggage finally caught up with me. Again, my apologies to all.
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  #147 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2004, 06:05 PM
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Damn Jessie don't cow down...I thought you did a hell of a job supporting your claims on por 15. Your persistance showed your strong will and you should be proud of yourself. You being new to the board I thought Barry K was a little of an A#@ hole. Martin Sr. is just anal. Have a good day...Dave
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  #148 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2004, 06:27 PM
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POR-15 and similar moisture-cure products have found their place in the amature restoration field, and perhaps someday with further experience and development, will gain further acceptance with the pros. I believe MartinSR has been the best here at presenting where its at now.
I think POR-15 is a great product for my needs, and I will cotinue to employ it, and reccomend it to folks that are on my level in the old car hobby.
The only reccomendation that I wanted to get across in this thread, is for those that intend to use it, and want durable, lasting results, the best surface is a rusted surface, if you are not going to apply it to a rusted surface, it is not the product to use. therefore it is better to deliberately induce a rust film for it, or not use it at all.
However, My personal attack on Barry's motives was unjustified.
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  #149 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2004, 06:29 PM
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Jesse,
Its not called for as no offense taken.
We can all disagree and that is a good education for most of us.
Some things there are no right and wrong answers as far as prep or painting.
On a place like this, is easy to misconstrued the tone of the letter written, if I could write like Martin I would have my PHD
but fact is I'm a lousy writer and because of that all my answers are short and sweet? Well, OK I will leave the sweet stuff out.

Bottom line here is we just want to make sure once the disagreements have been argued the inexperience painter has a clear answer of how to complete is job as cheap as he can and yet get the best long term results. Because painting is a budget buster for sure.
Me being a selfish person, I want to see all the young guys possible take up painting and body work because there is a real shortage of skilled people in this business and getting worse as we speak.
Thank you!
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Old 11-16-2004, 07:04 PM
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Thanks Barry, tonight I get to fall asleep with a smile on my face instead of a frown
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