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  #151 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2004, 07:17 PM
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Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
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Gosh damn, I feel like a group hug, that includes you Dave!

I know I have learned a heck of a lot about this subject here and other threads on Hotrodders. One thing I do know, there are some seriously passionate opinions on the subject!
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  #152 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2004, 07:56 PM
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Not only just passionate opinions, apparently body work and paint is the most popular subject on Hotrodders, with over 7,500 views! has anybody found another subject that draws such a big audience?
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  #153 (permalink)  
Old 11-17-2004, 09:30 AM
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I still think the major point is being missed here and that is when products like por and rust encapsulator are touted as the first choice for rust repair when they really should be the choice of last resort. When a so-called tech rep(eastwood)suggests spreading rust over a large area as the best way to deal with minor specks in light pitting that is just plain wrong. When someone with some experience relates how these products seem to work for them then that is good, however when they insist that these unconventional methods are the best way to go when there is plenty of evidence to the contrary then they are stepping over the line.(not picking on you jessie just the subject in general). When non-pros are presented with what seems like a new miracle product that will provide an easy way out of a hard job and are urged on by someone who may or may not be qualified to judge these products in a meaningful way then it becomes all to easy to make the wrong choice. Opinion is fine and new methods should be discussed as that is how we learn but one should never get upset when someone with experience is disinclined to accept a new method until it is proven. One cannot overlook the fact that a rusty panel is still just as rusty regardless of what it is covered with, be it por or duct tape it is STILL there and in the case of frame rust or unibody rust let us not overlook the very important matter of structural failure due to an attempt to take the easy way out. I know that the first argument here will be to ascertain the structural integrity of a part first but not all are qualified or inclined to do so. Also covering what at the time might seem like acceptable damage is kind of like pulling a rug over a hole in the floor it may look ok....BUT. Even if the damage is not structural it may cause a salvageable part to be lost later due to further deteration. when one considers the time,money and sweat that goes into our projects then the old saying of "if it is worth doing,it is worth doing right" could not be more true. If someone thinks "bandaid" repair is ok then that is fine with me, if they want to share that view with others thats ok too but I was very impressed with the knowledge I found here coming from the pros and I have learned a LOT that I could not find anywhere else and it gets a little depressing when someone wants to argue that an unproven method is the best way and to call someone blind and ignorant because they refuse to accept unproven methods over the conventional is just inexcusable, again I am NOT picking on anyone in particular it is just that it seems to happen alot here.

Last edited by oldred; 11-17-2004 at 10:27 AM.
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  #154 (permalink)  
Old 11-17-2004, 02:18 PM
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Oldred,
I can feel your pain more so than you can imagine.
A few people know what i do but most don't and I try to keep it on the QT.
Think how I must feel when I see these posts and I know what resin is used where it is bought from and how much it costs to make a gallon of the stuff.
I can't give the facts I would like to give because i have more of a liability than "someones opinion".
So if a letter looks like its written with anger and smoke coming off the page thats why.
I could make this, PPG & Dupont could make this if they wanted to and drive the price way down. Why don't they?
Epoxy is at least five times harder to formulate.
Oh, I forgot! Por is an epoxy!!!! Yep.

Last edited by BarryK; 11-17-2004 at 03:07 PM.
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  #155 (permalink)  
Old 11-17-2004, 03:36 PM
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You got at lot of points there oldred, I will try to take a kinder gentler approach to my posts from here on out.
I have never used Eastwood products (except Oxy-Solv, but I didn't purchase it through them) so I do not feel at all qualified to comment on the best way to use their products.
However I have been using POR products for some ten years, based on the experiences and recommendations of various members of the Studebaker Drivers Club, some of whom have cars that they treated with POR 20+ years ago, even on this forum there are posts claiming that they applied POR way back in '87 and it still looks like new.
As you could tell by my previous posts, I have been very satisfied with how it has performed for me. ( admittedly just one individual)

Structural repairs on a well rusted vehicle need to be done regardless of what finishing materials are employed, as I said in my inital post, about welding in new metal in all rusted out areas, and sandblasting clean all the areas to be refinished. (something I left out before, I am only speaking of frames, floor pans and concealed interior panels here,- I have never even attempted to use POR on any exterior panels, unless we count utility trailer fenders.)
Now the obvious thing about these M.C products, no matter how much you, or the professional refinishers don't approve of them for automotive use, a lot bucks down rodders are using them, and at an exponentially increasing rate, (which would hardly be likely if they weren't getting satisfactory results,- advertising can only suck us in,- it takes customer satisfaction to bring us back)
Knowing that our friends ARE going to experiment with these products, whether we approve of it or not, it only makes sense to share our experience, so that they achieve the best results they can- even if you think its the WRONG approach and that the products are crappy short-cuts.
This is why offered my experience and opinion on the best way to use POR, think here--- If this subject HAD previously been well covered, you would not have been 'suckered' into using POR-15 on the floor pan of your Mustang, and so upset to find out that it needed rust to work effectively, you would have been able to make a well informed decision, as it is you are on here bad-mouthing the product already, which you admitted has not yet given you any problems.
My advice to you today, and I'm not being a wise-*****, is that if you really don't like it that bad, strip it off, and redo it the 'right' way. ( it melts easily when flashed with a torch or a heat gun, and will wipe right off with rags, do a quick sandblast and you are right back to go...I've done this when I was dissatisfied with the surface- bubbles, pinholes, bugs, of course I didn't have to sandblast as I just laid down a new coat of POR ...'experience')

I apologize to you for suggesting that you were blind and ignorant, the point that I was trying to make at that time was that there is literally tons of information available on the subject of POR-15, and other moisture-cure products, that you did not avail yourself of this information is no one else's fault.
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  #156 (permalink)  
Old 11-17-2004, 05:14 PM
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jessie I did avail myself of the info available just not all of it before I used the por. I never said that I didn't think this stuff would work for what I used it for I said that after doing more research I believe epoxy would have been better. I intend to leave it and see what happens,time will tell. I would not have used por,rust encapsulator or any other cover-up to simply slow and hide rust as I was highly skeptical when dealing with even the tiny specks and thats how I wound up here. The original question,as has already been pointed out,was how to eliminate rust not how to hide it. I cannot believe that rusty panels have a place in a QUALITY restoration no matter if it is inside or outside it is STILL rusty. Clearly rust removal is better than any kind of cover-up and that point should be made when discussing any of these "miracle cures" but unfortunately all too often they are touted as the best way when the right way really would not be all that hard to do.
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  #157 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2004, 01:05 AM
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MartinSr,

I am not familiar with the autobody stuff any more, I get more into metallurgy and aircraft. It's been a long time since we painted with cheap red primer, sprayed with lacquer, wet sanded, and wheeled the finish. We made some real pretty cars, orange peel was something not to be tolerated (seems not to be the case nowadays). But I was just a kid, sanding, and taping, and rubbing out, till my arms were falling off. It was a 2 bit body shop, the owners didn't even read the instructions on the paint cans. They used what they were familiar with. Paint chemistry has come a long, long way since then. Maybe I'll get into it on my project car, if I discover that finding a good body shop is like finding a good engine or trans shop. Any more if I go into a place that charges good money, and they give me a blank stare when I ask a question that I already know the answer to, I just sigh and go do it myself.

Thanks for your reply!


Quote:
Originally posted by MARTINSR
Pantload, I would say that is more than two cents, it closer to a buck and a half.

I love that stuff, and I am damn proud of myself, I understand what you said!

I am trying to fully understand the etch primer vs epoxy issue.
Do you have any knowledge on the etch primers and epoxy primers commonly found in the autobody industry?

If you do, what do you think about the issue?
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  #158 (permalink)  
Old 11-22-2004, 05:34 PM
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sand blasting

Now Don't Jump On Me But......... I Was Just Thinking , Will Blasting Deform Metal No Matter What The "sand" Material Is..?
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  #159 (permalink)  
Old 11-22-2004, 09:00 PM
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After posting on a forum abut how the sands friction hitting the surface caused the heat which caused the warping. A fellow forum reader send me the following email, pretty darn interesting.

The weight of the particles is what makes the difference. I have only blasted with a few different medias so I don't have much info for you but maybe someone else will chime in.

Sand is a no-no, even small grain sand will act like the little hammers my buddy told me about. Most of the media that won't cause damage also won't do anything with the rust either! Soda, walnut shells, or plastic and the like come to mind.

Now, of course it depends on why you want to strip. To just strip paint, plastic media is GREAT. It will leave the metal like NEW. I mean like new, no abrasive look to it at all, just like you peeled all the primer and paint off, it is really cool. And it doesn't damage the glass or chrome!

Sandblast warping Sandblast warping
XXXXX XXXX here - I read your post / recommendations against sandblasting body parts and I am in complete agreement. However, the mechanism that creates warpage is not the heat associated with friction of the abrasives hitting the metal. Rather it is the compressive forces induced within the sheet of metal by the heavy abrasive particles hitting the metal surface. You will not see this same warping when light abrasives are used because they lack the kinetic energy required to compress the molecules in the steel sheet thus leaving the sheet in the same stress state as it was in when formed by the dies at the factory.
This is a common misunderstanding, yet this behavior is well understood by some industries and is exploited by those who understand it to improve fatigue life of certain parts (like connecting rods for instance - they are often shot peened to redistribute stresses and place the surface of the rods in compression to reduce fatigue crack propagation).
When you blast one side of sheet metal, that side of the sheet metal surface will build compressive stresses and will physically grow - this places the opposite side of the sheet into tension - this will result in the side being blasted to bow up toward the blasting source.
In order for warping to occur due to thermal conditioning - the metal actually has to be heated up to a point where the molecules reach a transition state where they go from one packing arrangement to another (close cubic packed to close hex packed) - picture a six pack of beer held together with the plastic rings - that is stress relieved / annealed steel. Now - take the cans out and stack them so that each row of cans is offset by half a can diameter - this is a tighter pack - although less friendly from a packaging standpoint at the grocery store. This new denser orientation is the orientation that steel molecules take on when raised to a sufficient temperature (depends on carbon content and alloys) . . . if you raise steel to this temperature and then quench it - you lock the close packing orientation into this dense packing structure and this results in shrinkage (and increased hardness / brittleness).
Using this technique it is possible to take a piece of 1013 mild steel, whack a piece off, heat the piece up and then drop it in a bucket of water, use a water cooled grinder to sharpen it . . . and then you can cut the parent piece of metal with it as it is harder and denser in this condition.
Soooooo . . . . that is the difference between warping / shrinkage of metal due to sandblasting (compressive mechanism - localized molecular packing) or due to thermal influences (gross - macroscopic transition of molecules to a higher density due to re-orientation of molecular packing).
With all this knowledge in hand (or mind) . . . you now also know that thermal conditioning is typically used to shrink metal on a localized basis where sandblasting will always cause metal to grow on a localized basis.
Hope this makes sense . . . thanks for the great writeup!
XXXXXXX
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  #160 (permalink)  
Old 11-23-2004, 03:56 PM
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Thumbs up SURFACE RUST

guys? tisk tisk, (POR-15),(paint over rust),depending on where you are,it is highly available and is fully backed by the manufacturer with a money back guarantee i am a part time salesman of this stuff,its just what you need MARTINSR.My 85 SS Monte had a small surface patch of rust on lower part of the door recently when i repainted it,If you follow EVERY DIRECTION , it will NEVER come back as it seals the rust permenatly from moisture,(POR-15)is basically a 3 part process,clean with the supplied degreaser MARINE CLEAN, then etch with the metal etcher METAL READY leaves a zinc-phosphate coating,dry thouroghly,then paint the POR-15 on the spot,if its an area that will be primed and painted like my doorjamb,the POR-15 will need to be wet sanded,its not easy to sand either,FOLLOW ALL DIRECTIONS,no sandblasting,no welding,though it is best to remove as much rust as possible but not neccesary!!! e-mail me if you need more info!! OPG sells it,YEAR ONE,and many other places
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  #161 (permalink)  
Old 11-23-2004, 05:12 PM
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Re: SURFACE RUST

Quote:
Originally posted by SSMCJON
guys? tisk tisk, (POR-15),(paint over rust),depending on where you are,it is highly available and is fully backed by the manufacturer with a money back guarantee i am a part time salesman of this stuff,its just what you need MARTINSR.
You're new so I'll go easy. First and foremost introduce yourself to everyone in the Introduction forum. Second please read the rules. Third, you may be a part time sales person for POR but your new and don't know your way around this forum yet so be careful who you lecture. MARTINSR is too nice a guy to say anything but he and BarryK and a couple others are custom painting professionals with decades of experience. Guys like these really don't need to be lectured on anything when it comes to paint and body. We are very lucky to have people like them stop by regularly and share their expertise so please take some time to read through the FAQ sections. That way you'll find out who the pros are. Although I use POR myself, please remember there is always more than one way to skin a cat, and POR is only one product that can help solve the problem in question.

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  #162 (permalink)  
Old 11-23-2004, 05:50 PM
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SSMCJON.... a salesman you are. Now let me tell you what you just said. If you follow the directions to the letter, the company will return your money when the part rusts out.

A money back guarantee does little for someone that is working on a car that may be worth upwards of $100,000.00 when done. If the thing rusts because it was not repaired properly, the value drops alot more than the $25.00 that was paid for the POR. The product does have some good uses. If the wrought iron railings on my porch needed to be painted because it was rusting, that might be a good idea. Not much to loose, when it starts to rust again. It will not likely cost alot to repaint it later, and may last longer.

When I think of "lifetime" and "money back" guarantees, they remind me of Advance Auto Parts rebuilt starters. A few years ago, I had a repair shop. We had a customer that bought a starter from them, installed it himself, laying on his back in the gutter area of the street. The starter would not work, so he called me. I had the vehicle towed into the shop, and checked it out. The starter was bad. He said that he had a "lifetime" guarantee from Advance, so he wanted me to take it off, and he would return it for an exchange. I advised him that we would do the work for him, but if the new starter he supplied didn't work, he would have to pay again to have it taken back off. After the third starter was removed, he had me buy one from someone else, that way we were responsible for it. The one that I bought worked just fine, and he was on his way. It cost him more for the labor for installing and removing the starters, than the starter cost.

Guarantees like that, when they involve labor, are usually useless, as they usually don't cover the labor or related costs, or losses involved.
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  #163 (permalink)  
Old 11-23-2004, 10:15 PM
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Wow! a money back guarantee! How can you go wrong? So even if after I spend countless hours and thousands of dollars on my project I can rest easy knowing that if that qt. of por ever fails the company will CHEERFULLY refund my whole $25. Man what a DEAL!
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  #164 (permalink)  
Old 11-23-2004, 10:47 PM
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I really have my doubts on the authenticity of the post. It really reeks of a poop starter to me.

But in case SSMCJON is real and really posted it I will take my time to respond.

SSMCJON, if you read the entire thread, I know it is long but there really is some great stuff there. You will find that everyone has spoken their mind on the POR subject. Some very knowledgeable people have said everything there is to say about the good and bad of POR and similar products. A sales pitch is truely worthless at this point.

To ride on AdtKart's comments I have to say that it is a damn shame that the words "Lifetime warrantee" mean NOTHING because of a lot of companies like POR, PEP boys, Harbor Freight, and many others. POR does have a product that is useful, so do these other companies, there are uses for these cheap products. However, because they have thrown the words "Lifetime warrantee" on everything in sight, it no longer means QUALITY like it did years ago.

You are a salesman for them huh? Well, can you authorize a refund to someone for his "warrantee"? Can you, without so much as calling a supervisor hand someone a credit for $2,000.00? I am assuming you are a "distributor" of POR and not an employee of the company. You simply buy it at whole sale and then sell it at suggested list. Well I was an employee of a respected paint company. I was a regular old rep, a "salesman" if you will. I could make that $2,000.00 credit to a customer if I felt our product had done them wrong or failed in some way. Now, $2,000.00 isn't much when you are talking about paint on a fleet of trucks or something. But it would handle most jobs and I had the authority to make the payment. And if it involved more, I made a phone call, WHAM, five or ten thousand if I wanted. I never had to do that, but if I needed it, I could do it.

So when I call you up and say I scubbed the loose rust off my boat trailer and brushed on some POR JUST as it says in the instructions, you are going to cut me a check when it starts to fail and rust continues? That is a "warrantee" as far as I know. What does POR pay me for? My trailer? My labor? Or do I get a quart of POR after some lab tests?

No, there was a time when "Lifetime warrantee" meant something. You KNEW you were getting a quality product. SnapOn tools, that is a LIFETIME WARRANTEE that means something. I walk onto the truck and hand him a broken tool and he hands me a new one. No asking what happen, nothing. But of course you would have to seriously abuse a SnapOn tool to break it. But they would still hand you a new one, no questions asked. They not only will replace it if broken, they replace it if it is just worn a little. This past friday I walked on the truck and handed the guy my phillips screw driver, just handed it to him. I didn't say a thing because he was helping someone else. He turned around and handed me new one, and I walked off the truck. That my friend is a REAL "Lifetime warrantee". Now mind you, you don't even need this warrantee. The tools last so long you get your moneys worth. I have SnapOn tools that I bought 30 years ago that I use every single day!
One of the apprentices where I work went to Harbor Freight last week and bought an air ratchet. It broke the first day he used it, he brought it back, sure they handed him another, it lasted two days. He is now on his third in ONE WEEK. Is it a "lifetime warrantee"? I guess so, but it sure as heck isn't a product that I would call "Lifetime warrantee" quality!

No, the whores have taken that time honored phrase that meant quality and drug it down into the gutter. It means NOTHING now, what a shame.
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  #165 (permalink)  
Old 11-23-2004, 10:55 PM
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After I sandblasted the heavily rusted grill pieces of my '48 Stude pickup to a 'metal in white' condition, the areas between the grill bars were deeply pitted after all the visible rust had been removed, some pits penetrated almost 2/3rds of the way through the metal. (nice M-5 grills are very hard to find- and quite expensive)

Having had previous experience with the toughness of a well applied coating of POR, I figured it would be ideal for this application, as it is extremely resistant to chipping. I applied 2 coats and let it harden completely, then sanded them lightly and filled all the pits with fiberglass resin, sanded, and laid on 2 more coats of POR, at this point the parts appeared as new. I intend to scuff them one last time and spray them with J.D. 'Blitz Black'.

The point of this post is about economics, practicality, and durability. These parts had survived over 50 years with the minimal protection of the factory applied paint. (this was a working farm truck, so it likely never even received so much as a single wax job.)
Several times it has been suggested in this thread that the 'cure' for rust is to just "cut it out, and replace it with new metal"
I'm here to tell ya that just isn't practical advice when dealing with parts as intricate as these grille pieces, IF it could be done, (it would take one hell of a skilled metal-worker and a lot of hours) the labor cost alone would run into the thousands.
And after all that labor and expense what have you got but a grill that at its best is no better nor durable than the original.
Which brings us to the subject of durability, This time around it is reasonable to expect that the vehicle will receive better care than it did formerly, (if not it would be rather pointless to even begin a restoration.)
There is every reason to expect that the restored parts, using modern tech. coatings and paints, and TLC will last far longer than the original factory applied finish, which in this case is another 50+ years.
I would expect this to be true wether POR-15, or Epoxy primer/ paint systems are employed.
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