RUST..What are the acceptable permanent ways to get rid of it? - Page 14 - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
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  #196 (permalink)  
Old 08-01-2010, 04:31 AM
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sorry but there is no way to do it "free" . i don't do what i cant afford, simple as that. good epoxy can be brushed or rolled. if 150 for epoxy is out of your reach so is building a hotrod.

phosphoric acid can be used to remove rust but it must be completely neutralized before epoxy.

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  #197 (permalink)  
Old 08-01-2010, 05:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roger1
Epoxy that comes in spray cans is not worth a darn. Forget that idea.
Also, "conversion" of rust is a myth. There will still be rust. Get rid of the rust and work with clean metal. Also forget the Ospho. Prep the clean metal with 80 grit D/A scratches, use a waterborne wax and grease remover, and spray 2 coats of a high-quality epoxy on the metal. Ospho on clean bare metal is a waste of time and can be detrimental. Use Ospho on your outdoor furniture but use quality automotive products on your car body. For automotive use, epoxy has the best adhesion to properly prepped metal bar none.
obviously someone that never used it....its more like navel jelly with a hemi....I've only found three good ways to REMOVE rust (not convert it) ...

The best and easiest way is with an electrolytic solution and electricity (reverse electro plating) its simple and safe if done right.But whatever you want to derust has to be totally imersed in the solution...So something like a car will require a swimming pool size tank....separate pieces like doors and fenders are a lot easier...This process is so good that even screws and bolts that were rusted solid will easily come out afterwards....

my second choice would be ospho and a wire wheel with multiple applications for the heavy stuff...the rust dissolves away and it gets better and better each time....NOTHING cleans like acid... nothing.....thats why they use it at the plating shops (chrome) so yes ,it does a great job of cleaning unrusted metal and etching it for primers it makes ALL primers stick better.
Keep in mind I'm only talking about using Ospho ....its not the same as phosphoric acid but that IS what makes it work.its like calling etch primer acid ,its just not the same....OSPHO DOES "NOT" NEED TO BE NEAUTRALIZED...

Media blasting is another way to get rid of of rust but it has to many drawbacks to be of much use on cars for newbies unless it shipped to a pro that will guarantee no warpage....Still... your taking a chance...Personally I want to do every step myself....
blasting will take off good metal with the rust ...its very messy and cant be done unless every piece is removed. so you cant blast a car that's still able to move in and out of the shop just total restos...Then you have the expense of the equipment ,special place to do it that wont get sand over every square inch of the shop or garage. then after its done you still have to prime it right away because it'll start rusting that day.I defiantly wouldn't trust a blasting company to prep and prime my car....I have shipped a few cars out for blasting and they did a good job but it cost about 1,200.00 .....and I still used the ospho to protect it ....
I found the most economical ,easiest and fastest way to get started on a project is to chemical strip with aircraft stripper (50.00a gallon) and treat the bare metal with ospho (15.00 a qt) whether its rusted or not then epoxy prime ...I also dont have much use for any other primers or sealers any more....This is how I've done it for the past 25 yrs and how and why I do it on all the cars I strip and restore at my shop,There are no exceptions...

there is no "permanent" way to remove or stop rust you can only slow down the process....Metal is man made and rust is natural....

Its not nice to fool mother nature...
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  #198 (permalink)  
Old 08-01-2010, 06:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shine
sorry but there is no way to do it "free" . i don't do what i cant afford, simple as that. good epoxy can be brushed or rolled. if 150 for epoxy is out of your reach so is building a hotrod.

phosphoric acid can be used to remove rust but it must be completely neutralized before epoxy.
I really have to agree with Shine here...if you MUST skimp dont do it at this stage....its too important....skimp on ANYTHING else.after epoxy...but not this.After all ,everything else is cosmetic,without a good foundation it doesn't matter how pretty it is ,it wont last so your wasting your time....
Its like using old bearings on a new crankshaft....
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  #199 (permalink)  
Old 08-01-2010, 06:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CMR
The problem with this thread is, after 13 pages, it doesn't do anything for the backyard builder. People don't want miracles, they just want their jalopy not to rust while they work on it. But not everyone can afford what people are pushing here. Doing it "the right way" costs a lot of money for people just starting out. Sure, a good can of epoxy primer isn't that expensive, but getting to where you can spray it is. Paint booth, spray guns, ventilation, filters, PPE gear, and so on, all that stuff adds up to a big chunk of change.
CMR ,Your are exactly the kind of enthusiest I'm posting for...and my sole reason for joining HR.I've been in this biz for 35 yrs and know some pretty good ways to save a buck some that other old timers showed me and some I figured out on my own but trust me there are some things that you just CANT skimp on.
EPOXY PRIMER and metal prep are very important.
There are some pretty good ways to get around the expense of just about everything else.(like homemade paint booths).I was once in your shoes and have tried many ways do do things ,not all have worked so I can help you guys avoid making the same mistakes and help you along with the things that have worked ,how well and what works best....money is to valuable to waste ,so everything I use is the best bang for the buck...
Stripping and preping metal is not that hard ,any one can do a proper job that will last without a lot of experience...you can skimp on everything else because most guys arent pros and cant do the same quality work with bondo and paint so skimp there ,it doesn't make sense to me to have a newbie spend thousands of dollars on the best materials and end up with a so so quality job....It takes years to achieve the level of talent pros have ,you simply cant get there without time, and a good teacher can only get you so far.So buy a cheaper paint and clear and other materials where the lack of experience wont matter....theres some very good deals out there on paint and materials to do the whole job for under 500.00 but thats about as cheap as you want to go and still get a decent job that lasts ....
The metal work is about the least expensive part to get right as far as materials goes so dont skimp on it...
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  #200 (permalink)  
Old 08-01-2010, 08:40 AM
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ok - so I've read everything there is on rust removal - including every posts in this thread - and think I understand the pro's and cons...but there is one thing I don't get....

Rust needs a few things to "grow" - i.e. continue the rusting process .. iron + oxygen + water ..

so if i wire brush off the rust surface so i am left with pitted bright metal - with admittedly rust down in the pits - but no holes or very thin metal - but then epoxy both sides therefore creating a barrier to oxygen and water - won't the rust just stop at this point ?

then fill - then epoxy again - so even if the filler absorbs some moisture it is sandwiched between two epoxy layers - am I not good.

(now this is for a daily driver resto - not a show winning car )

- Stephen
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  #201 (permalink)  
Old 08-01-2010, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deadbodyman
obviously someone that never used it....its more like navel jelly with a hemi...
No. I haven't used it and don't ever intend to.
However, I wasn't implying that using a phosphoric acid product is not a good way to remove rust.
I use it and do it the way Randy shows in this thread:
http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/secrets-surface-rust-removal-revealed-55679.html
Epoxy should be applied to bare metal, not whatever Ospho leaves behind.
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  #202 (permalink)  
Old 08-01-2010, 08:48 AM
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yes epoxy will seal off the rust . rust is created by electrolysis and fed by moisture and oxygen. the more you remove the better. after blasting and washing with dawn soap the car will get a light orange tint to it. this is surface rust but it is no problem. the more iron in your water the more you will see. what it does do is tell me the metal is clean. simple brush off with red scotchbrite and it's ready.

always follow paint mfg recommendations . if they say don't do it then don't think for a second you have more knowledge than the people who make it.
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  #203 (permalink)  
Old 08-01-2010, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stephen44
OK - so I've read everything there is on rust removal - including every posts in this thread - and think I understand the pro's and cons...but there is one thing I don't get....

Rust needs a few things to "grow" - i.e. continue the rusting process .. iron + oxygen + water ..

so if i wire brush off the rust surface so i am left with pitted bright metal - with admittedly rust down in the pits - but no holes or very thin metal - but then epoxy both sides therefore creating a barrier to oxygen and water - won't the rust just stop at this point ?

then fill - then epoxy again - so even if the filler absorbs some moisture it is sandwiched between two epoxy layers - am I not good.

(now this is for a daily driver resto - not a show winning car )

- Stephen
================================================== ======

Steven a short answer to your question, as this is a thread not worth much more.

As far as automotive there are three stages of rust, flash, the start of pitting and the scale.

Your theory is right but it is also wrong from stand point that scale hold air and moisture, so sealing from both sides will actually accelerate it, kinda same as a cancer cell that get air when you are cut open, goes on a mad rush to replace itself, kinda sorta anyway.

Flash rust is or can be painters best friend, if using epoxy, DTM 2K, acid etch, polyester will not stop it.
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  #204 (permalink)  
Old 08-01-2010, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryK
================================================== ======

Steven a short answer to your question, as this is a thread not worth much more.

As far as automotive there are three stages of rust, flash, the start of pitting and the scale.

Your theory is right but it is also wrong from stand point that scale hold air and moisture, so sealing from both sides will actually accelerate it, kinda same as a cancer cell that get air when you are cut open, goes on a mad rush to replace itself, kinda sorta anyway.

Flash rust is or can be painters best friend, if using epoxy, DTM 2K, acid etch, polyester will not stop it.
Hey Barry !

i kinda thought that might be the answer

(btw - what i asked is not what i am doing )

- Stephen
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  #205 (permalink)  
Old 09-03-2010, 08:23 AM
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I'm lost

All I learn by reading these post is whatever works for one guy, it won't work for the next. About POR's (I'm not a body man or a painter) most body shops around here replace, if possible and only a few sand blast most soda blast.
One soda blast the whole car then theyspray witha filler called RAGE ( They said this will protect the car from rust forever!) they sell big $ cars - my friends that our body experts (my opinion) don't like there work! BUT THEY DO SELL CARS! So i'm still in the dark and I do think that the only way to to keep Mr.Russ Away is to cut him off! Please keep up the great comments!
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  #206 (permalink)  
Old 09-24-2010, 05:33 AM
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These rust threads allways seem to take a bad turn so before I get mad and tell some idiot they dont know what they're talking about I'll take a break for a while...Breaks over....
I've used Ospho to restore every car i did in the last 25yrs before that I did them all the other ways described here (for 10 yrs) Theres so many opinions here its hard to draw a fair and balenced conclusion ....SO...If anybody really wants to learn something about using Ospho from a pro just PM me I'll give you the step by step details for great results... I find this works best.....
Mike
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  #207 (permalink)  
Old 09-24-2010, 10:39 AM
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Rust

Pour 15 has always worked for me. leaves ateflon coating that you can sand and paint over.
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  #208 (permalink)  
Old 09-25-2010, 05:54 AM
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I've gotten Por15 to work well, but I would not use it again. I know that sounds strange.

I didn't set out to do it, but my resto project has become a product comparison between rust inhibiting paint. Its sitting in an open car port, body on stands above the frame. The frame is covered in Por15 and its top coat. 7 years later, it is still black, so it can work just as advertised. However, the frame was a rough, rusty-orange surface which seems ideal for Por. On smooth metal, ever after their etch, I have seen it run off like water on glass.

That being said, my real negatives about it are:

1. It is very "plasticy", even after setting for a long time. If you really scrape it (as I did moving the frame), it peels off like a big sticker unless the metal is really super rough underneath.

2. Cost. One of my floor pans is done in Por and the other in "Masterseries". I have inadvertently setup a side-by-side comparison and they have been aging for like 5 years now as my resto grinds along endlessly.

The Masterseries is holding up just as good, at a lower cost. It also sticks to the metal easier when painted on. I don't believe you have to etch with master, but its been years so don't quote me. The car's firewall (done in masterseries) faces directly into the rising sun and gets blasted till about noon. It seems completely unaffected (the Por15 topcoat will dull and get hazy after years of sunlight). I havent had a major scratch in the master, but it doesnt appear to be so "plasticy"- still unsure if it would peel like the Por does.

So, in my experience, Por is a good product if properly applied, but MasterSeries is better at a lower price.
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  #209 (permalink)  
Old 12-14-2010, 12:34 PM
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Inducing rust only to apply por. Yeah right.
Thats a good idea
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  #210 (permalink)  
Old 03-12-2011, 01:08 PM
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The spring is coming, I'll see how my por15 job will look like. I couldn't find ospho in Canada so I'll try KBS. It's supposed to be improved, cheaper, and easier to work with than por.
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