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RUST..What are the acceptable permanent ways to get rid of it?

71K views 213 replies 53 participants last post by  deadbodyman 
#1 ·
The subject pretty much says it. I know for a fact that sand blasting is oxidations end for sure, but is there any other method that will treat this problem?
 
#52 ·
i am probably wrong, but the idea is to prevent a car from turning into Iron Oxide so my thought was if one was to prevent the Oxide from coming in contact with the metal wouldnt there be no rust. So then a paint that didnt let the air in would prevent rust. Why hasnt anyone devised a paint like that? Also what does the zinc do in those zinc coatings? Is it just a sacrificial metal, like it is on boats? or is there something more?
 
#54 ·
covering up rust will not stop it. changing the color of rust will not stop it. the best you can hope for is slow it down. i hate seeing guys buy into the marketing hype going on now days. it gives them a false hope. remove as much as possible and use quality finish products. a good coat of epoxy is your best friend. remember " one step" ? it was just a chemical reaction to turn the rust purple. did absolutely nothing else. we took an old t body and tried several methods and put it back in the field. rust came right back thru all the miracle products. cut it out or blast it. but even blasting will not stop it. por 15 is a marketing success only.
 
#56 ·
Hope you guys don't mind if I jump in here, I have been following this for the last couple of days and I have to say that I have learned a LOT! I had been planning to use eastwoods rust encapsulator on some tiny rust specks that remains in the light pitting inside my mustang doors. When I contacted eastwoods tech service they admitted that rust encapsulator cannot be used on clean(sandblasted) metal, so in order to treat the specks I was instructed to spray water on the sandblasted metal,wait a couple days for the entire area to develop a coating of rust and then apply rust encapsulator! Let me think now,all I have to do to control the tiny rust specks is to induce a layer of rust over the entire inside of my door and then I simply brush on a coat of this stuff. Pardon me if I am a little skeptical but I think that it is finally getting through to me that there just is no magic potion out there. What I have decided to do is to treat the metal with an etching solution,clean and then spray with epoxy. I would appreciate any suggestions on type and brands of metal prep and epoxy primer for this purpose. I am only trying to deal with tiny specks in light pitting not heavy rust or rust through.
 
#57 ·
Rust

From my industrial experience rust (Iron OXIDE) can be "controlled" by keeping oxygen away from the metal. Period.
I don't think rust can ever be eliminated unless you keep the metal in a vacuume. The next best thing is a covering (paint) that will keep fresh oxygen away from it. The problem as I see it is that when raw metal has been exposed to oxygen the rust process starts immediately but if you can get it covered quickly with a highly unporious agent (paint) you can do a lot of good.
Kinda along with this has anyone noticed that when a metalic surface has been welded (like on the exhaust) that particular area will start to rust before the rest of the piece?
Just my 2 cents
Charlie Smith
 
#58 ·
Hi everybody! just a newbie to this forum, but a real old-timer with a lot of practical experience in the automotive field.
I retired after a 30 year stint at G.M.s Lansing Mi. Body Plant,(formerly the Fisher Body Div. of G.M.C.) however my involvement in auto repair and restoration began even earlier so I can honestly claim some 45 years of experience...not sure here Whether I'm bragging or complaining!
Anyway, during all of those years my personal passion has been the repair and restoration of STUDEBAKER automobiles, so I feel eminently qualified to speak about RUST repair and control.
I would like to point out there is a great difference between the theoretical control of rust, versus the practical, If I had attempted to remove all traces of rust from a couple of my Studes, they simply would have ceased to exist!
The '64 Daytona I am currently working on has needed about 70% of the floor-pan replaced along with portions of the firewall, cowl, wheel housings, etc, the entire body shell inside and out is covered with various degrees of rust. It's the kind of car that even most ardent Studebaker enthusiasts would have relegated to the crusher.
Twenty years ago I too would have had no other practical option on a vehicle so badly rusted, but now, experienced with newer products and methods, I know exactly how to proceed and to restore and preserve such a automobile.
To keep this short, I cut out all holes and weak sections back to metal solid enough to make good welds, make and install patch panels (I repair small sections at a time, starting with the worst /most difficult areas) when all repairs requiring heat and welding are completed, I use torch, stripper, sandblaster, to strip entire pan of all paint/coatings/sealers or flakey rust , then I mix up a concentrated salt water solution and wet down the entire pan, salt-water saturated rags are the laid over any clean metal, this is to force rust to form quickly on the newly welded and cleaned metal sections.
After a couple of days, I use a garden hose and give all surfaces a complete flushing, (any unrusted areas are sanded and retreated) ideally there will be a film of rust over the entire floor,
I now apply 2 coats of POR-15, following directions on the can. any unwanted holes, thinned pitted areas, or surface defects are covered with fiberglass mat saturated with POR-15. As per directions I apply a thin dusting of automotive primer to the surface before it hardens completely. The pan, or part is now ready for painting with any topcoat (However DO NOT under any circumstances apply the POR-15 over any paint or clean metal)
I have now had years of experience with this process, (and a lot more examples than I can list here) and as far as I can determine it holds up even better than clean blasted metal that has been coated with any type paint system. Most of the metal I have refinished this way , I trust is still going to be around long after I'm pushing up daisies. Jessie J. a POR-15 convert
 
#59 · (Edited)
Well thats great!

Would it not be better just to pull in out in the rain for a month?

Does GM use this procedure?

I know I'm in 1000-1500 body shops a year and in 30 years, never have seen it done like this before.

Perhaps a "patent of procedure" is in order! Could be a money maker!
 
#60 ·
Nope Barry, I make no claim that G.M. or anyone else that I know of uses this procedure, but then the O.E. manufactures rather obviously, normally don't have to deal with auto bodies that have accumulated 40+ years of rust penetration, which makes for a whole new ball-game compared to working with virgin sheet metal fresh off the press. (as an aside here, I worked in the Body Shop at Fisher during '68 through '73 period and many times our output exceeded the Trim Depts. capacity, and the excess bodies in white were stored outside in the yard, when it rained they would come back in covered with a nice patina of rust)
As far as "professional" body shops around here, most of them will only do collision work, and refuse to even look at a rust repair job, I know because I tried to get a hole repaired that was thumb-nail sized and every 'professional' shop in town flat out refused the job. Not that I couldn't have found a "Auto Detail" shop that would have been willing to hammer it in and slap some Bondo in it , but with the quality of work they provide it was better off left alone!
When I first started using POR-15 , I noted that I was never having any problems with it in areas that were well rusted, only on areas that were fresh metal or had paint residue remaining.
It might work better to "just to (put it) out in the rain for a month" but I just don't have the patience to let nature run its slow course, and living in Michigan I get a seasonal reminder of how salt and water can accelerate the corrosion process :)
So I have taken a different tact in dealing with rust, after years of dumping money into trying to eradicate every last vestige of it,
and failing, only to have it return, I now encourage it to cover every square inch, so I can stop it dead in its tracks !
Because Studebakers are more famous for their tendency to rust than for anything else, members of the Studebaker forums have been discussing the results of their rust control efforts on-line for as long as there have been web-sites, and the consensus of those who actually do the work, rather than just theorize, is that POR-15 flat out WORKS! while admittedly some use other products, none has achieved the track record of POR-15.
Perhaps there are better products, or better methods, I can't say with certainty as I no longer have any need nor reason to try out every new product or method. I am very satisfied with the practical results that my method produces. Jessie
 
#61 ·
Barry, I commend you on your self control in your post. I too am sitting here biting my tongue. :drunk:

Jessie, just think about this, you are using a procedure that is way, WAY out of the norm. I have been around auto restoration all my life, I have never seen anything like it. This is not to say you have stumbled appon some break thru in rust treatment, it goes against every known scientific reasoning.

POR is a "magic potion" much like the Diet pills in the womans magazines. And to think you would want to ENCOURAGE rust prior to coating with a paint just defies all logic.

Because it has "worked" for you in some limited "tests" doesn't in any way mean that it "works" better than PROVEN methods.

It is like taking an asprin each morning when you get up, and thinking because you "didn't" get a head ache 354 days of the year it means taking the asprin was the "cause" for the lack of headaches. You have to look at "cause and effect". If you were to treat your rusted floor with peanut butter, but NOT subject it to moisture (as most restored cars) that doesn't mean peanut butter is the answer.

Go back to some of the previous posts debunking POR and go to the links in a post of mine a page or two ago for rust prevention on off shore oil derricks. I think these boys have some REAL experiance with rust prevention. :)
 
#62 ·
Martinsr, careful you don't bite your tongue off, :) I have read every single post I could locate on this board, including all of yours , in addition to hundreds of other posts on an uncounted number of other boards and web-sites over a span of years that deal with the use of POR-15.
But as I stated in my inital post, Theory and practical are two different things, to wit: I described the condition of my '64 Studebaker, and my method of restoration, given its described condition, I believe the method I applied is the very best there is available for this particular vehicle, admittedly, if I lived in the deserts of the Southwest, and had a pristine floor-pan/body-tub, I would not employ such an extreme method.
However, if you sincerely believe "POR is a magic potion...like diet pills.." I can only infer that you actually have no PRACTICAL experience in the actual hands-on application of the product.
I, and others have been using this product for years now with very good results, far better results in fact, than were given by the more popular or so-called 'correct procedures'. Big deal, I have all the correct equipment, and have also used all the expensive 'correct' and popular methods of rust removal and refinishing, and in practice NOTHING else has worked as well. Gee, I now have hundreds of items around here now that just do not rust anymore, including the frames of three trailers, the floors and frames of my Studebakers, the steel plates that my basement jack-posts sit on, the fenders on my utility trailer, hell we even used the white to reline my sons porcelain tub, well lets just put it this way, you are definitely 'a few bricks short of a load' in trying to persuade me that POR don't work, and work extremely well, as I am surrounded with evidence to the contrary.
We are not painting off-shore oil derricks, the products they use are not intended nor suitable for automotive use. so this tangent is nothing more than a 'red herring', a diversion.
 
#63 ·
Jessie J, I am glad the por-15 works well for you but if I ever induced rust on one of my customers cars they would shoot me dead. I have never applied any por-15 but I have removed a bunch. I, like MartinSr are not believers in chemical treatment.The por-15 i have had to remove had alot of rust forming under it. Maybe who ever put the Por-15 did not do proper prep. Anyway auto body work is different than other trades because you can do it many different ways. Some folks wet sand everything and others sand dry. I have a few methods for different aspects of body work that differ from the norm. If Por-15 is working for you then RIGHT_ON!
 
#64 ·
:), ok Jessie, we will have to agree to disagree. Thanks for returning with a good solid argument free of personal attacks, I bring that out in people sometimes :)

I will agree with you in that POR seems to do wonders over a rusted, poorly prepared surface. But I will not go as far as to say that sandblasting, etch primer or epoxy primer will not perform better. But like I said, we can agree to disagree.

Welcome to the forum!:welcome:
 
#65 ·
I have to chime in here about a thang or two. I do not pretend to be a professional body man here, but I have some expereince with POR15. On a floor pan, I used it about 8 years ago. The pan was ground fairly clean. A small amount of surface rust in the form of pits or negatives in the metal remained. I just recently found some of the POR peeling. The metal underneath the peeling POR as well as adhereing POR was pretty rusted.
I am of this opinion.
POR 15 under the right circumstances may help slow it down since it should seal moisture to some extent. The reverse would also probably be true in my thinking. If moisture penetrates, it would also then hold moisture in fairly well. I think the biggest problem is that it is very..very difficult to get a good seal all of the time. Just my two bits worth.
As far as sand dry or wet, not picking on anyone here, but it drives me nuts, either the surface finish is correct or it is not. If I remember my prior training from the 3M cam center, it does not matter how you get there. It is either correct or not. Of course some methods cost more than others in time and material, so that is about alll there should be to argue about.
I wonder if POR15 could be made peanut butter flavored by the way?????? I may buy more of it then...Naaaaaaaa ;)
 
#66 · (Edited)
Bodyman Dave, I can sympathize with your need and desire to continue to employ the old and time-honored methods your customers expect, and the products that you are experienced with and confident about using.

However, I must comment that every single product that you employ in prepping a panel to prevent rust and promote paint adhesion, are in fact "chemical treatments" and are also dependent upon chemical reactions to adhere, to harden (dry) and to seal the surface against moisture and oxygen.

The point I strongly made in each of my previous posts was that POR-15 needs a rusty surface to be effective, thus if you found any paint or rust free metal under the POR you were removing, that is an indication that the product was improperly applied.

I am not so naive as to expect the established big-business refinishing industry or pro-shops to ever adopt such a simple solution, firstly, their business is built around extracting the maximum profit from every product line, from every sale, and from every service.
Further, and I am extremely aware of this, EPA restrictions limit O.E. suppliers and manufactures options with respect to the release of Volatile Organic Compounds (V.O.C.s) this is one of the reasons that G.M. is having to build a new body facility to replace the old Fisher Body Plant that is now located in a down-town Lansing neighborhood, and has been a continual source of citizen complaints about 'strange' odors.
Products like POR-15 will never meet the Air Quality requirements of high volume industrial usage, as the cost of meeting these standards would be prohibitively expensive.
The best and most durable protective coatings that chemistry can devise will never be made available to the general public (including commercial body shops) for well founded environmental reasons.
POR-15 is NOT a paint, but a coating based on the same basic chemistry as 'super glue', it does not dry, but hardens through a chemical reaction with the humidity in the air to form a tough protective barrier impermeable to water and oxygen.

Interesting that this product has been both praised and cursed at for years now, some of us swear by it, while others swear at it.
I am just a home hobbyist/ restorer with no vested business interest to protect; YES, IT WORKS FOR ME! :) Jessie J.

I also feel a need to digress a little here and relate a little of my early years with Fisher Body Division, When I began working for them in 1968, the last step before applying primer was a final wipe-down of all exterior panels with 'Metal-Prep' this product was a dilute acid and would cause a thin orange film of iron oxide (rust) to form on the surface to promote primer adhesion.

A few years ago I had occasion to chemically strip the paint off my low mileage 1960 Impala, and every panel had that same orange 'patina', folks that strip their cars by mechanical means, such as blasting, or D.A ing usually are not aware that that original factory applied layer of rust is what had been holding their paint film in place for all those years.
 
#67 · (Edited)
Good G**!
I started to break down your post and answer by paragraph
I'd be at this computer all day.

Pal you have no clue what you are talking about,

you write pretty but reading through your three posts there are to many things you have wrong! Mostly back wards on a lot of accounts.

Your answers strike me a salesman for por who can only write the bull his sales manager has told him.

All I will say is if someone on here is stupid enough to read your post and follow procedure, they deserve what they get!

If ignorance is bliss, you must be ecstatic!
_________________________________________________
2nd Thought!!
I was just thinking the "Intentional stupidity" if your letter was unlike anything I have ever read on here BUT ONCE!

-- also from Michigan --also worked for GM. Same person?
Weld through Primer?
Go figure!

Don't worry about responding to me as I have no interest!
 
#68 ·
Ah, but Barry, the reason I took care to double space (most) of the above paragraphs, (and kept the wording simple) is so that your expertise could rebut them easily, maybe I should have also numbered them for your convenience?

There are only ten paragraphs in my last reply, so why not just knock off the know-it-all blustering and address the statements that you are convinced are wrong?

I am not, and never have been a salesman nor distributor for POR products and have absolutely no financial or other monetary entanglements with the company or its products.

So Barry, you are in "1000-1500 body shops a year" I wonder in what capacity? your not selling any products or distributing any manufactures product lines, right?

About the "weld through primer" nope again Barry, however that is a term that many manufactures have used to identify the zinc-rich and electrically conductive seam sealer applied between spot welded panels. I even have a video tape here showing it being applied on the assembly-line, By the way for how many years were you employed in an auto assembly-plant?

I do have great interest in your reply Barry.
 
#69 · (Edited)
I wish this post had appeared sooner,that is before I sprayed the underside of my car with por. Like I said I have learned a lot! At this point only a few months after applying the por it looks really good,shiny and hard as nails BUT time will tell. The surface was sandblasted and free of any paint and visible rust but if I were doing it now I think I would use a good epoxy. One thing is certain there is no way I am going to intentionally cause rust to form anywhere on my car. I heard about all these miracle cures and read their sales pitch and it all sounded good but I guess I should have known better. Some of you have made some really good common sense points that make a LOT more sense than some bull$#!* sales pitch and from now on I will look to the more conventional approach and advice from the pros instead of someone looking to make a buck from their product. It was a real awakening when the eastwood rep said to MAKE my doors rust just so I could use their "cure". Been in this old world to long to fall for that one.
 
#70 ·
It seems alot of respectable people on this board have had very good luck with por15. I have never used it and always do the strip and paint instead of shortcutting. However, it seems to me a bit rough to tell someone that their experience with a product is worthless and they are stupid for using it. The whole salt water thing made my mouth drop, but I can see using por15 on stuff like floorpans and frames....

Chris
 
#71 · (Edited)
Oldred, didn't it seem a little strange to you that Eastwood marketing a rust-treatment product that is in direct competition with POR , essentially gave you identical application instructions? that is that the product is at its most effective when applied over a rusty surface.
As per your post, I certainly would NOT recommend for you to use Eastwoods, PORs, or any similar products on your car in as much as you are determined NOT to follow the product instructions and recommendations.
A question does remain however, Why on earth would you apply a product that was engineered to paint over rust, even named- 'Paint Over Rust'- if your intent was NOT to 'paint over rust' ?
 
#72 ·
What seems strange to me is that these products are not available from the large auto body supply houses if they work so well. I am only a novice at body work but I have the good sense to listen to all sides and martinsr,barry and some others make a darn good case for staying with conventional methods and materials. I used por 15 once on the underside my mustang thinking it was the latest technology for rust prevention and from what I can find out it will probably be ok but I now think it would have been better to use epoxy. When the eastwood rep said that I needed to let my car rust that was the last straw! If you don't mind driving a car covered with painted rust thats ok, but it's not for me. I have a fairly soild car and I am not going to cover it with rust just to treat a few rust specks. You also pointed to the late 60s early 70s bodys that were allowed to lightly rust at the factory before painting as if that proved your point but think back a few years to those old rust buckets. I rest my case.
 
#73 ·
You may "rest (your) case", close your mind, shut your eyes, and plug you ears, but in the long run its not going to make a whole lot of difference to the rest of the world how deaf ,blind, and ignorant you chose to keep yourself.......................................

FYI
Typing "POR-15" into Internet Explorers Search bar will return more than 6,497,035+ entries, so our little discussion and exchange of opinion on this board is hardly of any significant import in the grand scheme of things.

If you so choose, you may rust-proof your car with peanut-butter, chicken gravy, or anything else that suits your fancy,
If you want to buy whatever Barry is a sales representative for, well, that's also fine with me.
 
#74 · (Edited)
BarryK said:
If ignorance is bliss, you must be ecstatic!

I was just thinking the "Intentional stupidity" if your letter was unlike anything I have ever read on here BUT ONCE!

-- also from Michigan --also worked for GM. Same person?
Weld through Primer?
Go figure!

Don't worry about responding to me as I have no interest! [/B]
***********************************************
Some things just seem to fit better a second time!
 
#75 ·
"the only real use of this in our side of the business is in "weld through primers" in these cans depending on company there may be 75-95% zinc and the rest nothing more than suspension solvents for spraying."

Barry, the phrase "weld through primer" upsets you?
Oh, I see, its got to be "weld through primers" :rolleyes:

Your still blustering Barry, come on and tell us all what you are selling in those "1000-1500 body shops a year" ?

Are you ashamed of your products?

You would'nt be harboring no "chemical treatments" intended to treat or prevent rust problems, now would you?

There is a lot of information on the uses of POR products in the public domain, Please, share with us your great wealth of knowledge and experience with these products ,
the whole world is waiting with baited breath.
 
#76 ·
Once more I will point out that I am not an old hand at body work so I guess I have no business disagreeing with someone who has been at it for many years but I am not stupid enough to cover my car with rust and I don't think anyone else here is either. I did not intend to get caught up in something like this so say what you want I am through. BTW, what ever Barry is selling I am SURE it is not rust!
 
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