RUST..What are the acceptable permanent ways to get rid of it? - Page 4 - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Body - Exterior
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #46 (permalink)  
Old 10-05-2004, 09:26 AM
MARTINSR's Avatar
Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San francisco bay area
Age: 56
Posts: 13,443
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1,575
Thanked 1,328 Times in 1,152 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by BarryK
***********************************************
How much zinc does the "E" coat have from the factory?
**********************************************
I don't know? I would guess if it does its a Phosphate. (just for ease of use with equipment) I will try and find out next week.
BWK
*********************************************
******************************************
We got edumacated today!
I talk to three different auto manufacturers
two American and one foreign. Here is what I learned (how things change) Because of the panels being galvicoated etc, etc.
The E-coat used by most manufacturers at this point is a
waterborne primer, with a few still using epoxy but no Zinc Phosphates or Zinc. (Cost measures)
Thats why I called three as I know these guys, but not well enough to say I getting a straight answer but the story was the same at each place. In short the black coating is not what it use to be. The world is going to h***!
This just ruined my day.

All I can say is WOW, that blows me away. It pays to get real information instead of assuming.

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #47 (permalink)  
Old 10-07-2004, 03:30 PM
Mopar_Truck's Avatar
New Member
 

Last journal entry: Dodge mania
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Canada
Age: 32
Posts: 9
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I typically just sandblast or soda blast, I find the most efficient method if its bad is to cut out all the really thin steel after its been sandblasted. Makes things easier if you have extra body pannels to cut from for replaicements.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #48 (permalink)  
Old 10-08-2004, 01:02 AM
Ron M's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Minnesota
Age: 51
Posts: 144
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I need to clarify what I am trying to communicate here. I think sandblasting or most medias used are without a doubt better than doing nothing with the metal or I would not do it myself. The thing I am trying to point out is that car body parts and many metal parts have seams, hems and various bends that get moist and hold rust. Many of these areas are not accesable by blasting. So even with blasting, there always remains some amount of rust somewhere on the body. I would be willing to bet that many of these older car bodies had rust somewhere on them before they hit the dealer. Yup, I am one of those guys who spots a speck of rust on the edge of a new shovel blade in the hardware store.
One other thought here. I always used to hear people say how they don't build cars the way they used too. I always reply with your right, they build em better. Pretty common for a car to hit 200,000 nowadays and look good, but how many 49 Chevs would look good after ten years of daily driving in Minnesota weather?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #49 (permalink)  
Old 10-08-2004, 02:46 AM
New Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Ohio
Age: 30
Posts: 26
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Yes Ron, But the 49 chevy takes much longer to rot out than any newer car does Am I right?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #50 (permalink)  
Old 10-08-2004, 09:13 AM
MARTINSR's Avatar
Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San francisco bay area
Age: 56
Posts: 13,443
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1,575
Thanked 1,328 Times in 1,152 Posts
Rocket, you are backwards. I certainly have not done any serious study so I may be wrong. But the 20 Chevy had no protection except the primer and paint sprayed on it, and that was probably only lacquer.

A late model car will have every single body part on the car galvanize zinc coated. I don't see nearly the rust on "late model" cars made say in the last 20 years as I did 20 year old cars when I started in this business in 1977. In fact, I never see rust of any kind, where there were always rust work in the shop 20 years ago.

Now, there could be a zillion reasons for this difference, it could be that cars are not kept as long these days and the third or fourth owner doesn't care about the rust like a first owner would have 20 years ago. No study was done here so I am not going to draw the connection so soon.

Also, the late model cars have higher strength steel in them,lots of HS steel. This steel has a higher Carbon content. Maybe some one with some metallurgy knowledge will chime in if that has anything to do with it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #51 (permalink)  
Old 10-09-2004, 01:19 AM
Ron M's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Minnesota
Age: 51
Posts: 144
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Martin,
I just got home from work, so you beat me to the punch on this one. I could not agree with your points more, nor could I have put it better. I should know more about the specific metallurgical properties since I have worked in testing of metal chemistry and properties some years back, but unfortunately I do not. If I do remember correctly though, HSS steel was introduced sometime in the 70's after the first oil embargo. The idea was to produce a steel of similar strength properties with lighter (thinner) gauge metal. There was HSLA, high strength low alloy, and UHSS , ultra high strength steel. The high carbon content of these 2 metals as with most high carbon ferrous metals can increase the corrosion problems. It seems to me there were Fords of that era (like my Pinto) that had galvanized cowls to reduce corrosion problems, but peeled their paint. I wonder if the peeling was partially due to the galvanized surface.

I also seem to remember that somewhere in the mid to late eighties, cars started to receive improved coatings and tended to rust less. Just think, the good ole days of zinc chromates. I used to work with that stuff. Just the thought of it makes me see green and the lunges feel heavy. We used to spray a zinc chromate coating in industry!

No scientific study here, just my shade tree body man observation with some industry experience. I have always attributed the less rust to the improved coatings since I am sure that HSS of the 70 & early 80s will rust like a bugger. I could be wrong about todays HSS because I could not imagine that they have not improved the alloy since. Please also note that I said alloy. I have seen minor chemistry changes do amazing things with properties. I could give many..many examples of this.

Ask any 40 plus person of why cars of the 70's rusted more than the cars in the 40s in Minnesota and they can tell you why in one word - SALT. With increased traffic, tons of salt are dumped on the roads and highways in the winter to prevent accidents. Then you have wet roads all of the time and people do not wash nearly as much in the winter. Salt + water = max rust out. This used to be a hotly debated topic to the point you could hear about it on the local news. For quite a few years now, you do not hear about this issue anymore and car bodies and chassis seem to be holding up better. I hardly see any rusted cars like I used to. Time to get off my soap-box, but I would love to hear more about the current metal properties if anyone knows them.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #52 (permalink)  
Old 10-10-2004, 12:41 AM
Lowandslow's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: the OC
Posts: 4
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
i am probably wrong, but the idea is to prevent a car from turning into Iron Oxide so my thought was if one was to prevent the Oxide from coming in contact with the metal wouldnt there be no rust. So then a paint that didnt let the air in would prevent rust. Why hasnt anyone devised a paint like that? Also what does the zinc do in those zinc coatings? Is it just a sacrificial metal, like it is on boats? or is there something more?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #53 (permalink)  
Old 10-16-2004, 07:50 AM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Michigan
Posts: 709
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 2
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
I've used POR 15, works great, the rustier the better, this stuff thrives on rust, good luck, Dana
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #54 (permalink)  
Old 10-16-2004, 08:32 AM
shine's Avatar
SPI Thug
 

Last journal entry: some progress
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: bluff dale texas
Posts: 2,781
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 256 Times in 202 Posts
covering up rust will not stop it. changing the color of rust will not stop it. the best you can hope for is slow it down. i hate seeing guys buy into the marketing hype going on now days. it gives them a false hope. remove as much as possible and use quality finish products. a good coat of epoxy is your best friend. remember " one step" ? it was just a chemical reaction to turn the rust purple. did absolutely nothing else. we took an old t body and tried several methods and put it back in the field. rust came right back thru all the miracle products. cut it out or blast it. but even blasting will not stop it. por 15 is a marketing success only.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #55 (permalink)  
Old 10-28-2004, 08:43 AM
Restorer/Builder
 

Last journal entry: 48 Grille Swap 3
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Florida
Age: 53
Posts: 74
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Has anyone tried using Rustoleum Rusty Metal Primer to help control rust?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #56 (permalink)  
Old 10-28-2004, 10:16 AM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: tennessee
Posts: 5,915
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts
Hope you guys don't mind if I jump in here, I have been following this for the last couple of days and I have to say that I have learned a LOT! I had been planning to use eastwoods rust encapsulator on some tiny rust specks that remains in the light pitting inside my mustang doors. When I contacted eastwoods tech service they admitted that rust encapsulator cannot be used on clean(sandblasted) metal, so in order to treat the specks I was instructed to spray water on the sandblasted metal,wait a couple days for the entire area to develop a coating of rust and then apply rust encapsulator! Let me think now,all I have to do to control the tiny rust specks is to induce a layer of rust over the entire inside of my door and then I simply brush on a coat of this stuff. Pardon me if I am a little skeptical but I think that it is finally getting through to me that there just is no magic potion out there. What I have decided to do is to treat the metal with an etching solution,clean and then spray with epoxy. I would appreciate any suggestions on type and brands of metal prep and epoxy primer for this purpose. I am only trying to deal with tiny specks in light pitting not heavy rust or rust through.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #57 (permalink)  
Old 10-28-2004, 10:36 AM
Charles F. Smith's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Texas Gulf Coast
Posts: 90
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rust

From my industrial experience rust (Iron OXIDE) can be "controlled" by keeping oxygen away from the metal. Period.
I don't think rust can ever be eliminated unless you keep the metal in a vacuume. The next best thing is a covering (paint) that will keep fresh oxygen away from it. The problem as I see it is that when raw metal has been exposed to oxygen the rust process starts immediately but if you can get it covered quickly with a highly unporious agent (paint) you can do a lot of good.
Kinda along with this has anyone noticed that when a metalic surface has been welded (like on the exhaust) that particular area will start to rust before the rest of the piece?
Just my 2 cents
Charlie Smith
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #58 (permalink)  
Old 10-29-2004, 12:05 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Michigan
Age: 65
Posts: 44
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Hi everybody! just a newbie to this forum, but a real old-timer with a lot of practical experience in the automotive field.
I retired after a 30 year stint at G.M.s Lansing Mi. Body Plant,(formerly the Fisher Body Div. of G.M.C.) however my involvement in auto repair and restoration began even earlier so I can honestly claim some 45 years of experience...not sure here Whether I'm bragging or complaining!
Anyway, during all of those years my personal passion has been the repair and restoration of STUDEBAKER automobiles, so I feel eminently qualified to speak about RUST repair and control.
I would like to point out there is a great difference between the theoretical control of rust, versus the practical, If I had attempted to remove all traces of rust from a couple of my Studes, they simply would have ceased to exist!
The '64 Daytona I am currently working on has needed about 70% of the floor-pan replaced along with portions of the firewall, cowl, wheel housings, etc, the entire body shell inside and out is covered with various degrees of rust. It's the kind of car that even most ardent Studebaker enthusiasts would have relegated to the crusher.
Twenty years ago I too would have had no other practical option on a vehicle so badly rusted, but now, experienced with newer products and methods, I know exactly how to proceed and to restore and preserve such a automobile.
To keep this short, I cut out all holes and weak sections back to metal solid enough to make good welds, make and install patch panels (I repair small sections at a time, starting with the worst /most difficult areas) when all repairs requiring heat and welding are completed, I use torch, stripper, sandblaster, to strip entire pan of all paint/coatings/sealers or flakey rust , then I mix up a concentrated salt water solution and wet down the entire pan, salt-water saturated rags are the laid over any clean metal, this is to force rust to form quickly on the newly welded and cleaned metal sections.
After a couple of days, I use a garden hose and give all surfaces a complete flushing, (any unrusted areas are sanded and retreated) ideally there will be a film of rust over the entire floor,
I now apply 2 coats of POR-15, following directions on the can. any unwanted holes, thinned pitted areas, or surface defects are covered with fiberglass mat saturated with POR-15. As per directions I apply a thin dusting of automotive primer to the surface before it hardens completely. The pan, or part is now ready for painting with any topcoat (However DO NOT under any circumstances apply the POR-15 over any paint or clean metal)
I have now had years of experience with this process, (and a lot more examples than I can list here) and as far as I can determine it holds up even better than clean blasted metal that has been coated with any type paint system. Most of the metal I have refinished this way , I trust is still going to be around long after I'm pushing up daisies. Jessie J. a POR-15 convert
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #59 (permalink)  
Old 10-29-2004, 12:29 PM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Georgia
Posts: 3,578
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 10
Thanked 61 Times in 39 Posts
Well thats great!

Would it not be better just to pull in out in the rain for a month?

Does GM use this procedure?

I know I'm in 1000-1500 body shops a year and in 30 years, never have seen it done like this before.

Perhaps a "patent of procedure" is in order! Could be a money maker!

Last edited by BarryK; 10-29-2004 at 03:49 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #60 (permalink)  
Old 10-29-2004, 05:28 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Michigan
Age: 65
Posts: 44
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Nope Barry, I make no claim that G.M. or anyone else that I know of uses this procedure, but then the O.E. manufactures rather obviously, normally don't have to deal with auto bodies that have accumulated 40+ years of rust penetration, which makes for a whole new ball-game compared to working with virgin sheet metal fresh off the press. (as an aside here, I worked in the Body Shop at Fisher during '68 through '73 period and many times our output exceeded the Trim Depts. capacity, and the excess bodies in white were stored outside in the yard, when it rained they would come back in covered with a nice patina of rust)
As far as "professional" body shops around here, most of them will only do collision work, and refuse to even look at a rust repair job, I know because I tried to get a hole repaired that was thumb-nail sized and every 'professional' shop in town flat out refused the job. Not that I couldn't have found a "Auto Detail" shop that would have been willing to hammer it in and slap some Bondo in it , but with the quality of work they provide it was better off left alone!
When I first started using POR-15 , I noted that I was never having any problems with it in areas that were well rusted, only on areas that were fresh metal or had paint residue remaining.
It might work better to "just to (put it) out in the rain for a month" but I just don't have the patience to let nature run its slow course, and living in Michigan I get a seasonal reminder of how salt and water can accelerate the corrosion process
So I have taken a different tact in dealing with rust, after years of dumping money into trying to eradicate every last vestige of it,
and failing, only to have it return, I now encourage it to cover every square inch, so I can stop it dead in its tracks !
Because Studebakers are more famous for their tendency to rust than for anything else, members of the Studebaker forums have been discussing the results of their rust control efforts on-line for as long as there have been web-sites, and the consensus of those who actually do the work, rather than just theorize, is that POR-15 flat out WORKS! while admittedly some use other products, none has achieved the track record of POR-15.
Perhaps there are better products, or better methods, I can't say with certainty as I no longer have any need nor reason to try out every new product or method. I am very satisfied with the practical results that my method produces. Jessie
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Body - Exterior posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:23 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.