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  #61 (permalink)  
Old 10-29-2004, 07:42 PM
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Barry, I commend you on your self control in your post. I too am sitting here biting my tongue.

Jessie, just think about this, you are using a procedure that is way, WAY out of the norm. I have been around auto restoration all my life, I have never seen anything like it. This is not to say you have stumbled appon some break thru in rust treatment, it goes against every known scientific reasoning.

POR is a "magic potion" much like the Diet pills in the womans magazines. And to think you would want to ENCOURAGE rust prior to coating with a paint just defies all logic.

Because it has "worked" for you in some limited "tests" doesn't in any way mean that it "works" better than PROVEN methods.

It is like taking an asprin each morning when you get up, and thinking because you "didn't" get a head ache 354 days of the year it means taking the asprin was the "cause" for the lack of headaches. You have to look at "cause and effect". If you were to treat your rusted floor with peanut butter, but NOT subject it to moisture (as most restored cars) that doesn't mean peanut butter is the answer.

Go back to some of the previous posts debunking POR and go to the links in a post of mine a page or two ago for rust prevention on off shore oil derricks. I think these boys have some REAL experiance with rust prevention.

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  #62 (permalink)  
Old 10-29-2004, 08:53 PM
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Martinsr, careful you don't bite your tongue off, I have read every single post I could locate on this board, including all of yours , in addition to hundreds of other posts on an uncounted number of other boards and web-sites over a span of years that deal with the use of POR-15.
But as I stated in my inital post, Theory and practical are two different things, to wit: I described the condition of my '64 Studebaker, and my method of restoration, given its described condition, I believe the method I applied is the very best there is available for this particular vehicle, admittedly, if I lived in the deserts of the Southwest, and had a pristine floor-pan/body-tub, I would not employ such an extreme method.
However, if you sincerely believe "POR is a magic potion...like diet pills.." I can only infer that you actually have no PRACTICAL experience in the actual hands-on application of the product.
I, and others have been using this product for years now with very good results, far better results in fact, than were given by the more popular or so-called 'correct procedures'. Big deal, I have all the correct equipment, and have also used all the expensive 'correct' and popular methods of rust removal and refinishing, and in practice NOTHING else has worked as well. Gee, I now have hundreds of items around here now that just do not rust anymore, including the frames of three trailers, the floors and frames of my Studebakers, the steel plates that my basement jack-posts sit on, the fenders on my utility trailer, hell we even used the white to reline my sons porcelain tub, well lets just put it this way, you are definitely 'a few bricks short of a load' in trying to persuade me that POR don't work, and work extremely well, as I am surrounded with evidence to the contrary.
We are not painting off-shore oil derricks, the products they use are not intended nor suitable for automotive use. so this tangent is nothing more than a 'red herring', a diversion.
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  #63 (permalink)  
Old 10-29-2004, 09:45 PM
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Jessie J, I am glad the por-15 works well for you but if I ever induced rust on one of my customers cars they would shoot me dead. I have never applied any por-15 but I have removed a bunch. I, like MartinSr are not believers in chemical treatment.The por-15 i have had to remove had alot of rust forming under it. Maybe who ever put the Por-15 did not do proper prep. Anyway auto body work is different than other trades because you can do it many different ways. Some folks wet sand everything and others sand dry. I have a few methods for different aspects of body work that differ from the norm. If Por-15 is working for you then RIGHT_ON!
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  #64 (permalink)  
Old 10-29-2004, 11:23 PM
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, ok Jessie, we will have to agree to disagree. Thanks for returning with a good solid argument free of personal attacks, I bring that out in people sometimes

I will agree with you in that POR seems to do wonders over a rusted, poorly prepared surface. But I will not go as far as to say that sandblasting, etch primer or epoxy primer will not perform better. But like I said, we can agree to disagree.

Welcome to the forum!
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  #65 (permalink)  
Old 10-29-2004, 11:25 PM
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I have to chime in here about a thang or two. I do not pretend to be a professional body man here, but I have some expereince with POR15. On a floor pan, I used it about 8 years ago. The pan was ground fairly clean. A small amount of surface rust in the form of pits or negatives in the metal remained. I just recently found some of the POR peeling. The metal underneath the peeling POR as well as adhereing POR was pretty rusted.
I am of this opinion.
POR 15 under the right circumstances may help slow it down since it should seal moisture to some extent. The reverse would also probably be true in my thinking. If moisture penetrates, it would also then hold moisture in fairly well. I think the biggest problem is that it is very..very difficult to get a good seal all of the time. Just my two bits worth.
As far as sand dry or wet, not picking on anyone here, but it drives me nuts, either the surface finish is correct or it is not. If I remember my prior training from the 3M cam center, it does not matter how you get there. It is either correct or not. Of course some methods cost more than others in time and material, so that is about alll there should be to argue about.
I wonder if POR15 could be made peanut butter flavored by the way?????? I may buy more of it then...Naaaaaaaa
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  #66 (permalink)  
Old 10-30-2004, 12:53 AM
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Bodyman Dave, I can sympathize with your need and desire to continue to employ the old and time-honored methods your customers expect, and the products that you are experienced with and confident about using.

However, I must comment that every single product that you employ in prepping a panel to prevent rust and promote paint adhesion, are in fact "chemical treatments" and are also dependent upon chemical reactions to adhere, to harden (dry) and to seal the surface against moisture and oxygen.

The point I strongly made in each of my previous posts was that POR-15 needs a rusty surface to be effective, thus if you found any paint or rust free metal under the POR you were removing, that is an indication that the product was improperly applied.

I am not so naive as to expect the established big-business refinishing industry or pro-shops to ever adopt such a simple solution, firstly, their business is built around extracting the maximum profit from every product line, from every sale, and from every service.
Further, and I am extremely aware of this, EPA restrictions limit O.E. suppliers and manufactures options with respect to the release of Volatile Organic Compounds (V.O.C.s) this is one of the reasons that G.M. is having to build a new body facility to replace the old Fisher Body Plant that is now located in a down-town Lansing neighborhood, and has been a continual source of citizen complaints about 'strange' odors.
Products like POR-15 will never meet the Air Quality requirements of high volume industrial usage, as the cost of meeting these standards would be prohibitively expensive.
The best and most durable protective coatings that chemistry can devise will never be made available to the general public (including commercial body shops) for well founded environmental reasons.
POR-15 is NOT a paint, but a coating based on the same basic chemistry as 'super glue', it does not dry, but hardens through a chemical reaction with the humidity in the air to form a tough protective barrier impermeable to water and oxygen.

Interesting that this product has been both praised and cursed at for years now, some of us swear by it, while others swear at it.
I am just a home hobbyist/ restorer with no vested business interest to protect; YES, IT WORKS FOR ME! Jessie J.

I also feel a need to digress a little here and relate a little of my early years with Fisher Body Division, When I began working for them in 1968, the last step before applying primer was a final wipe-down of all exterior panels with 'Metal-Prep' this product was a dilute acid and would cause a thin orange film of iron oxide (rust) to form on the surface to promote primer adhesion.

A few years ago I had occasion to chemically strip the paint off my low mileage 1960 Impala, and every panel had that same orange 'patina', folks that strip their cars by mechanical means, such as blasting, or D.A ing usually are not aware that that original factory applied layer of rust is what had been holding their paint film in place for all those years.

Last edited by Jessie J.; 10-30-2004 at 01:23 AM.
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  #67 (permalink)  
Old 10-30-2004, 04:48 AM
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Good G**!
I started to break down your post and answer by paragraph
I'd be at this computer all day.

Pal you have no clue what you are talking about,

you write pretty but reading through your three posts there are to many things you have wrong! Mostly back wards on a lot of accounts.

Your answers strike me a salesman for por who can only write the bull his sales manager has told him.

All I will say is if someone on here is stupid enough to read your post and follow procedure, they deserve what they get!

If ignorance is bliss, you must be ecstatic!
_________________________________________________
2nd Thought!!
I was just thinking the "Intentional stupidity" if your letter was unlike anything I have ever read on here BUT ONCE!

-- also from Michigan --also worked for GM. Same person?
Weld through Primer?
Go figure!

Don't worry about responding to me as I have no interest!

Last edited by BarryK; 10-30-2004 at 05:27 AM.
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  #68 (permalink)  
Old 10-30-2004, 09:17 AM
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Ah, but Barry, the reason I took care to double space (most) of the above paragraphs, (and kept the wording simple) is so that your expertise could rebut them easily, maybe I should have also numbered them for your convenience?

There are only ten paragraphs in my last reply, so why not just knock off the know-it-all blustering and address the statements that you are convinced are wrong?

I am not, and never have been a salesman nor distributor for POR products and have absolutely no financial or other monetary entanglements with the company or its products.

So Barry, you are in "1000-1500 body shops a year" I wonder in what capacity? your not selling any products or distributing any manufactures product lines, right?

About the "weld through primer" nope again Barry, however that is a term that many manufactures have used to identify the zinc-rich and electrically conductive seam sealer applied between spot welded panels. I even have a video tape here showing it being applied on the assembly-line, By the way for how many years were you employed in an auto assembly-plant?

I do have great interest in your reply Barry.
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  #69 (permalink)  
Old 10-30-2004, 09:47 AM
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I wish this post had appeared sooner,that is before I sprayed the underside of my car with por. Like I said I have learned a lot! At this point only a few months after applying the por it looks really good,shiny and hard as nails BUT time will tell. The surface was sandblasted and free of any paint and visible rust but if I were doing it now I think I would use a good epoxy. One thing is certain there is no way I am going to intentionally cause rust to form anywhere on my car. I heard about all these miracle cures and read their sales pitch and it all sounded good but I guess I should have known better. Some of you have made some really good common sense points that make a LOT more sense than some bull$#!* sales pitch and from now on I will look to the more conventional approach and advice from the pros instead of someone looking to make a buck from their product. It was a real awakening when the eastwood rep said to MAKE my doors rust just so I could use their "cure". Been in this old world to long to fall for that one.

Last edited by oldred; 10-30-2004 at 12:21 PM.
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  #70 (permalink)  
Old 10-30-2004, 09:47 AM
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It seems alot of respectable people on this board have had very good luck with por15. I have never used it and always do the strip and paint instead of shortcutting. However, it seems to me a bit rough to tell someone that their experience with a product is worthless and they are stupid for using it. The whole salt water thing made my mouth drop, but I can see using por15 on stuff like floorpans and frames....

Chris
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  #71 (permalink)  
Old 10-30-2004, 03:36 PM
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Oldred, didn't it seem a little strange to you that Eastwood marketing a rust-treatment product that is in direct competition with POR , essentially gave you identical application instructions? that is that the product is at its most effective when applied over a rusty surface.
As per your post, I certainly would NOT recommend for you to use Eastwoods, PORs, or any similar products on your car in as much as you are determined NOT to follow the product instructions and recommendations.
A question does remain however, Why on earth would you apply a product that was engineered to paint over rust, even named- 'Paint Over Rust'- if your intent was NOT to 'paint over rust' ?

Last edited by Jessie J.; 10-30-2004 at 03:45 PM.
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  #72 (permalink)  
Old 10-30-2004, 06:46 PM
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What seems strange to me is that these products are not available from the large auto body supply houses if they work so well. I am only a novice at body work but I have the good sense to listen to all sides and martinsr,barry and some others make a darn good case for staying with conventional methods and materials. I used por 15 once on the underside my mustang thinking it was the latest technology for rust prevention and from what I can find out it will probably be ok but I now think it would have been better to use epoxy. When the eastwood rep said that I needed to let my car rust that was the last straw! If you don't mind driving a car covered with painted rust thats ok, but it's not for me. I have a fairly soild car and I am not going to cover it with rust just to treat a few rust specks. You also pointed to the late 60s early 70s bodys that were allowed to lightly rust at the factory before painting as if that proved your point but think back a few years to those old rust buckets. I rest my case.
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Old 10-31-2004, 01:19 AM
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You may "rest (your) case", close your mind, shut your eyes, and plug you ears, but in the long run its not going to make a whole lot of difference to the rest of the world how deaf ,blind, and ignorant you chose to keep yourself.......................................

FYI
Typing "POR-15" into Internet Explorers Search bar will return more than 6,497,035+ entries, so our little discussion and exchange of opinion on this board is hardly of any significant import in the grand scheme of things.

If you so choose, you may rust-proof your car with peanut-butter, chicken gravy, or anything else that suits your fancy,
If you want to buy whatever Barry is a sales representative for, well, that's also fine with me.
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  #74 (permalink)  
Old 10-31-2004, 02:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by BarryK


If ignorance is bliss, you must be ecstatic!

I was just thinking the "Intentional stupidity" if your letter was unlike anything I have ever read on here BUT ONCE!

-- also from Michigan --also worked for GM. Same person?
Weld through Primer?
Go figure!

Don't worry about responding to me as I have no interest! [/B]
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Some things just seem to fit better a second time!

Last edited by BarryK; 10-31-2004 at 03:58 AM.
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Old 10-31-2004, 07:51 AM
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"the only real use of this in our side of the business is in "weld through primers" in these cans depending on company there may be 75-95% zinc and the rest nothing more than suspension solvents for spraying."

Barry, the phrase "weld through primer" upsets you?
Oh, I see, its got to be "weld through primers"

Your still blustering Barry, come on and tell us all what you are selling in those "1000-1500 body shops a year" ?

Are you ashamed of your products?

You would'nt be harboring no "chemical treatments" intended to treat or prevent rust problems, now would you?

There is a lot of information on the uses of POR products in the public domain, Please, share with us your great wealth of knowledge and experience with these products ,
the whole world is waiting with baited breath.
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