RUST..What are the acceptable permanent ways to get rid of it? - Page 6 - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
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  #76 (permalink)  
Old 10-31-2004, 08:03 AM
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Once more I will point out that I am not an old hand at body work so I guess I have no business disagreeing with someone who has been at it for many years but I am not stupid enough to cover my car with rust and I don't think anyone else here is either. I did not intend to get caught up in something like this so say what you want I am through. BTW, what ever Barry is selling I am SURE it is not rust!

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  #77 (permalink)  
Old 10-31-2004, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by oldred
what ever Barry is selling I am SURE it is not rust!
Now THAT is funny. LOL

Jessie, your comments about the amount of links found relating to POR on a search engine support my thoughts on your confusion of “cause and effect”.
Finding “X” amount of links doesn’t mean the “X” amount of links support your point. Heck, 99% of them could bring you to a discussion on how bad POR is. For that matter, there could be links to law suits, legal actions and the like where POR has been claimed to making false statements in it’s advertising. The amount of these links means nothing. I know there are lots of home hobbiest who support your point and the fact that most of those links are likely favorable towards POR don't change the fact that "X" amount of links found still means nothing.

Without extensive testing with a standard you nor I have any idea of how it holds up against any other product or procedure. Like my taking asprin analogy, you need something to PROVE what you did was better. Would you want to take a medicine that was "tested" like that? Well, that is how the "Clinical studies" are done on those diet pills. They are not true testing with a placebo, a standard. They are given to a "research group" much like my wife is a part of. A marketing research company sends us (me too) products like hair shampoo or ad copy and we fill out a form with our thoughts. With the diet pill the "research group" takes the pills and then fills out this form after a few months saying how much weight they lost. No standards, no placebos, no control on how much exercise, family history, environment, doses,etc. The "study" means NOTHING. Asking a home hobbiest how POR worked in the trunk of his 68 Camaro is hardly more than testimony, certainly not any kind of subjective testing. I know you have some on your trailers and the like, I have tried it out like that as well. Yes, it "covers up" the rust well under these limited "tests". But I'll tell you what, it sure isn't "bullit proof" as many people claim. I have seen people describe how they can hit the POR with a hammer and screw driver and it doesn't chip off! HUH? If someone is saying something so ridiculous, how can anything they say be taken seriously? I am not calling them a liar, if they "experianced" that, I believe them. But I will tell you right now, their definition of these "experiances" are different than mine! Again, without true testing where it is objective with a standard you know nothing. If you even "prefer" an outcome, the test can and most likely will be skewed. I actually have started such a test but have not completed it. But I do know while working for Sherwin Williams they spent millions of dollars on such tests.

1. Why wouldn’t the major paint manufactures offer a product such as POR?
I mean, S-W, DuPont, PPG and the like offer lifetime warrantees. They put hundreds of millions of dollars behind these warrantees. How can they do this without the wonders of the magic potion called POR-15? And don’t tell me they don’t have the patent or technology to make it. One of these companies could buy the POR company with what they spend on tissues in the executive wash room.


2. Back to my links to the refinishing of the Golden Gate bridge and off shore oil derricks. Why in the world don’t they use POR instead of the zinc rich primers they do? If POR did all the things the advertising claims, it certainly would seem like the product for those oil derricks. And heck, they wouldn’t even have to make up salt water to get them rusted prior to application.

3. OEM manufactures don’t use POR because they have much better ways to protect their products. VOC has little if anything to do with it. Tell me, what “manufacture coating” VOC regs are you using? I am not privy to the different regs for manufacturing around the country and I know there are many, which regs do you refer to? I know that I supplied paint to a number of manufactures (just small stuff like machinery, nothing like GM or something) where the same products I provided to the body shops in town were used with no problem. I do know that when we repair new cars for NUMMI at the shop were I work, it is because the manufacture (just a few blocks from the shop) aren’t set up to make these repairs, it has nothing to do with the products being used. As far as I know, that is. I do know that POR has a VOC well within the lowest VOC regs in the strictest regulated areas like San Francisco and Los Angeles county’s . According to the POR MSDS sheets I have in my desk (yes I am damn interested in this magic potion) POR has a VOC of 226-236 grams per liter. That calculates out to just under 1.9 lbs per gallon. Under the “surfacing primer” group (the lowest VOC reg) in these highly regulated areas that is well under the 2.1 limit. And miles under the 3.5 for SS top coats. Why can’t this product be used by the manufacture? I know there are regulations of all kinds around the country and the world, why isn’t POR used in any manufacturing? Unless it is of course that I have not been able to find, maybe you know of one. I would think that the way POR claims to stop rust FOREVER, it would be a heck of a selling point for some manufacture of expensive heavy equipment.


These are honest questions,not meant to insult or get personal. Please let's keep it on that level.

Last edited by MARTINSR; 10-31-2004 at 11:26 AM.
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  #78 (permalink)  
Old 10-31-2004, 12:25 PM
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The mention of links was not intended to support my argument, or any argument, but rather to point out how little information is actually is present in this thread.

"X" amount of links does indeed mean something, it means BarryK, you, or I are not the only experts in this world, and that none of our opinions here should be accepted as 'Gospel'.

I would have never felt compelled to post anything at all here if others who were involved in peddling their own products had not first began a one-sided attack on a product that they admittedly had little experience with.

Perhaps my biggest mistake here was thinking that a board named "HOTRODDERS" would have something to do with the "testimonials" and "opinions" and "experiences" of the hot rodding community, but it appears this section of the site has been totally hi-jacked by the " Pros." to serve their own interest.

Well thats OK too, thankfully there are other sites that do respect the "testimonials", "opinions" and "experiences" of their fellow Hot Rodders. have a nice day.
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Old 10-31-2004, 12:33 PM
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all i do know, it that since the ''pro's'' showed up, us ''dumasses'' can't do anything wrong. ain't for lack of trying on my part though.


Martinsr and BarryK, how many times have either of you actually used Por 15?
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  #80 (permalink)  
Old 10-31-2004, 12:57 PM
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i'm not sure i even want ot reply here but since i've posted an opinon i'll try to explain it. i dont sell paint or por 15. i by no means call myself a pro but i've been in a body shop since i was14. i have tried every hairbrained idea that came down the pike. theres not one product or method that i would back up. i can not and will not spread por 15 or any other product on rust and tell my customer it's fixed. does'nt work that way in my world. use any of them if it makes you fell better about your ride but dont believe all you read. you want to get rid of rust ? then get rid of it, remove the panel and replace. i'm 54 so that puts me 40 years into this trade. what goes on in detoit has dame little to do with what goes on in the real world of paint and body. this is just my opinon but it's supose to be about the cars. this is not my idea of fun.
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  #81 (permalink)  
Old 10-31-2004, 01:36 PM
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Jessie, Larry, both have you are taking "intellectual discussion" personal. I can joke a little, come on now. FIRST AND FORMOST I do not all ANYONE a "*******" for using POR. I will refrain from calling someone a "*******" until we are talking about safety or something like that. You tell me you are welding on a full gas tank I may call you a "*******".

I do not in any way sell any product, I have spent five years of my 30 years in the trade as a paint rep though. I have NO "allegiance" to any product of any kind. I have had hours upon hours of training in paint products and facts are what I want to make a decision on. I have no reason what so ever to "side" with POR or against it. I will "fight" for no product other than when science is on my side.

I will and continue to support the "non-pro" in his hobby and help with decisions using sound science. I will (do a search) suggest bonding a patch with a panel adhesive over a hole in the dash as opposed to the "right" way of welding. I will tell someone to bring their car to a McPaint shop, I will tell someone to use "value line" products, I will tell someone to use "bondo" over metal finishing and so on if that is where they are at their skill level and pocket book. I have spent hours upon hours on my "Basics" to demystify this stuff, one subject at a time. I didn't explain some of these simple (to a pro) procedures to call someone a "*******".

I will provide arguements against the "McPaint" shop, Bondo over metal finishing and so on as well, depending on what comes up in the discussion. There are pros and cons to many subjects. There are my way and your way to many subjects. There are also right and wrong, science proves them.

I have used POR, I stated that in my last post and others. That means nothing. Listen, come on now, think about this. If I say I have used it, it sucks. Does that mean more or less than someone else saying they used it and it is great? Do you take a poll and if 99 people say it sucks and 100 say it is good, use it? That makes no sense, you want PROOF on a subject like this. It is not whether you "like" how it wokd for you. How in the heck can I argue with that? If it does what it claims, now THAT I can argue.

Go back and read my last post, answer the questions. Jessie, please answer them. This thead is not "high jacked", you are free to respond.

The thread asks "Rust: what are the acceptable and permanent ways to get rid of it?". Do you want all the people to discuss this or not? I personally want PROOF that makes sense.

POR covers up rust. It does not "convert", "change","desolve", nothing of the sort, it simply covers it up. Now, if that is what you want, fine. I you want to learn how to "Permanently" GET RID OF IT, than look at other products and procedures.

I came to this forum with a die hard etch primer only over bare metal montra. With discussion here I have came to the understanding that there is big time room for discussion on the subject and I have much to learn.

Take the time to not take this stuff personal, even with a little barb here and there. It all comes down to one thing, no name calling and live on the facts.

I am wondering what a forum would look like if there were no "pros" to answer the questions? There are a number of questions that could be answered by other hobbyests, but there would sure to be little growth.

A quick question here on the forum can cut thru years or thousands upon thousands of dollars of "lessons". I go to a couple of forums on yard and home care. If a number of people who make a living at laying cement tell me what to do I am sorry, it just makes sense to listen.

Go back thru this thread and tell me how many people who do this for a living have suggested POR? Go on, tell me.

Last edited by MARTINSR; 10-31-2004 at 01:36 PM.
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Old 10-31-2004, 01:49 PM
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I was the one who called ''us'' or rather ME a ******. didn't mean to imply thats what anyone was saying or implying.
in fact, i was in my own way giving tribute, you guys have debunked a bunch of stuff for me, as well as others i'm sure.
i've said before that i'm not to thrilled with the results of my por experience.......

i just wanted to know if either of you had actually ever used it?

and knowing that you have in fact tried it, tells me more than all non-user-facts in the world could....

like you said ;
Quote:
I came to this forum with a die hard etch primer only over bare metal montra. With discussion here I have came to the understanding that there is big time room for discussion on the subject and I have much to learn.
i couldn't reiterate that any better. so i just quoted you.

got a lot to learn i do.

thanks.
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  #83 (permalink)  
Old 10-31-2004, 01:54 PM
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Sorry I misquoted you Larry.
Rock on
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Old 10-31-2004, 01:55 PM
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i could have been less muddy.
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Old 10-31-2004, 02:23 PM
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Shine, I thought I mentioned that I own Studebakers? 6 of the buggers presently, and the rust came factory installed! well almost,
Cutting out and replacing every panel showing rust in an old Studebaker is just not a viable option (I doubt that it would be for a 1948 Ford, Chevy, or Mopar either)
And in this instance I, the "HotRodder" am the only customer that I have to satisfy. I am free to choose the products and methods that best serve my goals and that satisfy me.
I have a lifetime of experience to draw on (began working in a body-shop as a 'sanding boy' at the age of 14 too!)
I have all the equipment I need to proceed in whatever manner or direction I choose, after completing all my metal repairs I could strip my Stude to body in white condition, and apply the products that BarryK and all the other 'Pro' salesmen here are selling.
But I have been listening to the "testimonials", "opinions" and "recommendations" of my fellow HOTRODDERS who are not "professional" salesmen on the payroll of big companies, listening, I tried out the products that they had recommended (and not just POR-15 by the way) getting good results, I tried them again, and then again, and then again, well you get the idea.
Now I believe the products that these professional salesmen are selling are absolutely the very best products and methods of application available for refinishing the modern automobile. That is their job, and they have came a long way since the 'paint-jobs' on the G.M. 'X' cars of the '80s.
That said, it does NOT follow that these products or methods are also the very best for HOTRODDERS to employ when working with 'vintage tin'.
It would be a rather interesting experiment to see just how BarryK would proceed and fare with the restoration of one of my Studebaker Daytona's, I wonder just how much he could spend on restoring its 40 year old body, perhaps only around 10 times its finished market value?
I'm an old school hot rodder, and don't even care to screw around with cars built after 1966.
Hmmm. just thought of it, I don't even own a passenger car that was built after 1964!!!

Last edited by Jessie J.; 10-31-2004 at 02:36 PM.
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Old 10-31-2004, 03:30 PM
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I deleted this, no need!

Last edited by BarryK; 10-31-2004 at 03:38 PM.
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  #87 (permalink)  
Old 10-31-2004, 06:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jessie J.
and all the other 'Pro' salesmen here are selling.
I am a HOTRODDER too. I have a chopped and sectioned 48 Chevy truck that I have built with my own two hands. I am also a bodyman by trade and have painted as well regularly for 30 years. I am only selling common sense.

Quote:
That said, it does NOT follow that these products or methods are also the very best for HOTRODDERS to employ when working with 'vintage tin'.
It would be a rather interesting experiment to see just how BarryK would proceed and fare with the restoration of one of my Studebaker Daytona's, I wonder just how much he could spend on restoring its 40 year old body, perhaps only around 10 times its finished market value?
Actually Jessie, many people spend times what their car is worth. That is their choice I do not knock them for it. Now, is the use of POR a good choice for many HOTRODDERS to get their HOTRODS out of the garage and onto the street to have fun. If you had been around reading my posts for very long you would have read that many times. I don't think for a minute you or anyone else shouldn't use it if that is what you choose. I said I we could argee to disagree but that was before you continued to mislead. It works well for YOU,that is all you can say.

Until you answer the three questions I gave you, please don't mislead with anything more than a simple testimony.

I have talked many guys out of stripping the paint off their cars, not pulling the body off the frame and other "best" ways to restore their car. I talk them out of it because I don't want to think they will be overwhelmed. It is much better to accomplish something and get that darn car out on the street. But I also make it clear WHY I am saying "don't do the best you can do". You are not doing that. You are saying this cutting corners with POR is better! Well it is not, that is a fact. And you admited it with the last post.

Quote:
It would be a rather interesting experiment to see just how BarryK would proceed and fare with the restoration of one of my Studebaker Daytona's, I wonder just how much he could spend on restoring its 40 year old body, perhaps only around 10 times its finished market value?
So what you are saying with that statment is to do the car RIGHT it would take 10 times as much. Well, you may be correct. But that would be doing it RIGHT. You could however do it with POR and get the car done faster, but it isn't the RIGHT way to do it.

That isn't a bad thing, I am telling you. I HAVE used POR, there are places for it. But it is NOT the right way, it is a short cut.
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Old 10-31-2004, 08:30 PM
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"The RIGHT way? , the RIGHT way? the RIGHT way?"
Sorry Pal, I AM NOT saying that it would cost ME 10 times as much to employ the methods that you are advocating as "the RIGHT way." Exactly what I did say was;

"I wonder just how much he could spend on restoring its 40 year old body, perhaps only around 10 times its finished market value?"

In fact if you look back to my initial post, I mentioned repairing all the sheet metal first, then sandblasting,.... it is only at that point that I deviate from your so called "RIGHT way" by using a procedure especially adopted to utilize the rust binding properties of POR-15, rather than your so called "RIGHT" products.
And it is at that point I make my decision to proceed with the product that I choose, not because it cost less (though it does) but because based on my experiences, I believe it in all respects to be superior to your "RIGHT" products and procedures.
At that point in the restoration process, the additional cost of employing your so called "RIGHT" products has became an insignificant factor, that would perhaps raise my total restoration cost by a whopping 5% Of course an expert salesman like BarryK could throw everything in the book at the job to get that 'ol profit margin right up there.
So we are back to that 'agree to disagree', If you are entitled to your opinion of the "RIGHT" way, I believe I am also entitled to my opinion of the "RIGHT" way.
No, I will not reply to your loaded 'when-did-you-stop-beating- your-wife?' type questions.
The readers of this forum are free to believe whatever they want of what has been posted here.
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Old 10-31-2004, 10:01 PM
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The best way of getting rid of rust is to sell the car and go buy one from the dessert. Next to that is surgery but you never get it all. Sandblasting is good for surfaces but doesn't get in between seams where rust lurks. A rusty car will always have been a rusty car. You can blast it, patch it, coat it and all those will buy time but it always comes back. If you do a real good job it may be on someone elses watch.
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Old 10-31-2004, 11:43 PM
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You got a solid point there Willowbilly, no matter what paints or coatings we use to fix up our rusty 40 to 80 year old hulks, the rust is going to remain in the seams, and in any doubled sheetmetal (a real sore spot in Stude floors, lots of backing/reinforcing plates) Chemical dipping might remove a little more, but with no way to access the seams to apply or replace the rustproofing removed by the dipping, the rust is likely to reoccur even quicker and more aggressively.
Even a totally rust free desert car would begin to rust overnight if exposed to the humidity thats present here, I know this by experience also, bought a mint rust-free daily driver from Texas, and watched in horror as it practically dissolved in front of our eyes. (that Texas sun had baked all the rust proofing right out of it) within 4 years it was worse shape than if it had been in Michigan from new.
The best we can do is buy a little time with our efforts, like I said in my initial post, I have accomplished my purpose if that "sheetmetal is still around when I'm pushing up daisies."

The original metal managed to stay relatively intact throughout all of those years with the minimal protection provided by the factory, and did so in the face of decades of benign neglect.
In the hands of a dedicated and caring hotrodder, the future is unlimited.
Some people would like to make us believe that restoring and maintaining a antique automobile is a one shot proposition.
I remember growing up in the '50s and '60 when it was common to see 3 year old cars that were rusted so badly the headlights fell out and dangled by the wires, so the car was relegated to sit out behind the barn, or an old wrecking yard, where it sat for the next 40+ years until someone realized it just need some care and a little cosmetic attention.
I love the challenge of bringing back a car that others would part out, or send to the crusher, and enjoy my time out in the shop doing metal work more than sitting in a lawn chair at car shows.
If I need to do some more body repairs, or even replace the entire floorpan somewhere in the far future, it is not going to limit the amount of enjoyment that I derive from my efforts today.
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