RUST..What are the acceptable permanent ways to get rid of it? - Page 9 - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
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  #121 (permalink)  
Old 11-14-2004, 12:02 PM
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Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
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Jessie, you could start an argument in an empty room.

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  #122 (permalink)  
Old 11-14-2004, 12:05 PM
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Damn it you beat me to the post!
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  #123 (permalink)  
Old 11-14-2004, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by MARTINSR
Jessie, you could start an argument in an empty room.
What about that post was argumentive?
I and others WANT to know how to attain a older vehicle that really has "ABSOLUTELY NO RUST ANYWHERE", and will remain in a rust free condition for say 20 years after a $$$$$$ restoration.

That there be no misunderstanding, I am talking about OLD vehicles produced 40,50, and 60 years ago, produced before the introduction of the modern factory applied metal coatings and paint systems introduced during the '80s and '90s.

For example that solid '65 Buick Skylark, how do you prevent rust from forming in the seams between the floor pan and the rear wheel housings? or the seams where the wheel housings are welded to the rear wheel arches? as it did the majority of cases (unless the car was scrapped before reaching 20 years of use,as the majority were)
Are you suggesting the 'RIGHT' way to 'restore' that '65 Skylark was to drill out every single spot-weld, remove the entire floor-pan, inner wheel housings, rockers, and disassemble every single stamping so that it can be painted with epoxy the 'RIGHT' way?( NO sarcasm is intended here) But a simple and serious question, Is this how you would have done the job to consider it to be done the RIGHT way?
(I only employed the empathsis here because thats how you employed it in your previous posts, and it is not being used nor intended as being sarcasm here.)

Barry wrote about a vehicle estimated to be worth $85,000, is it unrealistic to expect that for that kind of money, the car be able to remain rust free for 20 years?

I have "argued" nothing in this post, just asked a few honest questions, could you extend the courtesy of a polite answer?
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  #124 (permalink)  
Old 11-14-2004, 03:13 PM
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Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
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Anyone with a sensible thought in his head understands what it means. Now,as I said the guy who bought that car had a truck pick it up from here in Ca. It was trucked back to his place of business in NY where he specializes in restoring vintage motorcycles and cars.

The first email I got from him was he had put it up on the lift and could not believe the condition of the car he was VERY happy. Now, if he was not "misled" by my discription because he is sensible enough to understand it why can't you be?
Why, because you are looking for a ridiculous argument.

Now, I understand your point that if you wanted to be anal you have a good argument. It would be akin to saying your one year old son is a "baby" and I said, well actually he is a "todder" and he has aged all ready and is on his way to death.

I understand that you are from the rust belt and maybe you have never seen a car that is truly "rust free" but they exist, unless you want to dissect the statement to a level no one would ever go. You CAN drill the spot welds out of the wheel wells to quarters on this car and find next to zero "SURFACE" rust. Because this rust is doing nothing and will stay exactly the way it is for another thirty five years (if it is cared for) most normal people would call this car "Rust free". Now, because that MINUTE rust will someday be damaging rust if parked out on the curb in a snow covered street in the rust belt doesn't change what it is RIGHT NOW. Kinda like that one year old child, he will some day die of old age, that doesn't mean he is dead right now.


Like I said, the man who bought it, KNOWS rust, he thanked me for the honest description. I have three negative feedback out of 300 on ebay. The three that I do have were from people who expect way too much from people. I have been personally emailed over and over with thanks for my honest description. And many times I have been told it was BETTER than my description. That being said I must be speaking to the masses and not to the few who would pick the statements apart.
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  #125 (permalink)  
Old 11-14-2004, 05:20 PM
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In neither of my previous 2 posts did I intend to imply that your description of the '65 Skylark was any less than accurate for an honest sale on e-bay, nor that your add had attempted to mislead anyone, and as I stated concerning your add, there was "nothing wrong with that"
I am not looking for a ridiculous argument here, just that this thread asks , "RUST...What are the acceptable PERMANENT ways to get rid of it?
I admit the method I suggested WILL NOT get rid of it, in fact is intended to make it permanent. that IS NOT the answer this thread requires, but then neither is suggesting to just buy a rust free California car.
As I also said in a previous post, I HAD a mint rust free vehicle that I brought to Michigan from (central) Texas,(incidentally in much better exterior condition than the description of your '64 Skylark) and Michigan's climate literally destroyed it within 4 years. Obviously I could just move out your way too.
But then again that is no real answer to the "...acceptable PERMANENT ways to git rid of" RUST. If you don't have it in the first place, then you don't need to get rid of it, rather obviously
Point is I don't have a way and neither do you, all either one of us can actually do is fight it and stave it off temporarily, so it only comes down to a choice of methods.
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  #126 (permalink)  
Old 11-14-2004, 05:52 PM
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I think when someone posts the first time and first thing out of his mouth is I drove by a bodyshop when I was 12 and i worked on the line at Pontiac motors for 40 years and I know everything!

Just got a little overwhelmed that on this site is some of the best custom builders, restorers, cycle builders, metal men and bodymen and painters around.
And between about 20 people on here have won more shows and awards than that guy has ever seen before.

So he found out he don't know S%%% and now is going to do anything he can to upset the forum.
Below is a forum where kids write in and there are others like A-Z
that you could be king of the hill and not be so frustrated.

http://www.autobodypro.com/

Last edited by BarryK; 11-14-2004 at 06:07 PM.
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  #127 (permalink)  
Old 11-14-2004, 06:14 PM
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Nice friendly post there Barry, of course I did not actually write a single thing that you said.
If anyone cares to look back over these posts, they will find that apart from a lot of blustering, sniping, and evading, you have never so much as given a concise answer to any question or statement of mine that you were supposedly taking issue with.

The last I checked this Forum there were 148 threads relating to the use of POR-15, I have taken the time to read every single one of them, and basically my opinion after reading all of these posters inputs, is that you are attempting to blow smoke up everyones *****
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  #128 (permalink)  
Old 11-14-2004, 08:22 PM
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Jessie, this thread has gone all over the place, out to a few planets (Pluto and Neptune) and back.

It sounded as if you were "challenging" my statements if that was not the case, I am sorry.

As far as if my copy & paste job belongs in this thread, sure it does. The subject of how one "feels" about using POR or a similar poduct. What would you honestly say to a buyer of the car if asked if it had/has any rust. I had never thought of that, but it was brought up and I responded to that "angle" on the subject.

We are BELIEVE me on the same page, I think

On some cars it is the "bestest/fastest" way to "deal" with the rust. I think we are in agreement.

By the way, just to take this thread over to Uranus (not that I am kissing your butt). I have to say that it is a damn shame those Studes you love so much (I do as well) are not worth as much as other cars. They really do deserve to that $50,000 restoration you have been talking about. The Stude has always been a favorite of mine. My brother had a super clean "rust free" '51 Champion four door. I have always felt they were way ahead of their time. In fact, the '53 coupe (my mine has just froze and I forget the model name) was at the very least 15 years ahead comparing with the 68ish Camaroish pony cars. But I would argue that it was 25 to 35ish years ahead comparing it with the late seventies early eighties pony cars in styling. By the way, the Avanti company is for sale if you have a few mil.
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  #129 (permalink)  
Old 11-15-2004, 12:08 AM
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I fell in love with the old 'bullet nose's' when I was about 10 years old (visions of Buck Rogers space ships and P-51 Lightnings here ) used to sit in them fantasizing for hours down at the local junk yard, but have never yet got around to actually owning one, but of course now I also know sometimes the fantasy is better than the reality.
My first Studebaker was a graduation gift to me from a dying uncle, sadly he passed on before my graduation, but the family honored his wishes, and at 17 I became the proud owner of an absolutely gorgeous one elderly owner, 24,000 mile 1965 Cruiser.
As it was a 4 door and a bit of a 'old mans car' and I was a hot shot teenager, it was only a matter of months before the original 283 (chevy in '65) was outfitted with a Weiand Hi-Rise and AFB, hand fabbed duals, and a 4 speed replaced the automatic, and I just ran the living hell out of it! street racing against anybody in anything that was willing to line 'er up.
Our wedding album is full of pictures taken of that 'ol Stude at our wedding in 1969, I finally moved on to newer and more exciting cars and stupidly I let myself be talked into selling it, for years after I tried to track it down again, but no dice , my mis-spent youth had vanished on me I've owned a lot of Studes since, but like a lot of things, a fellow never forgets his first ride
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  #130 (permalink)  
Old 11-15-2004, 06:45 AM
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Wow, this thread has gone down some roads......looks like we are down to splitting hairs. Seems the conclusion would be for a driver or budget build up by garage guys that are not too particular, POR will get 'er done. For a show car or proper rebuild by a detail oriented builder, rust removal is best.

Jessie, I am sure you have had good results with POR as have many other respected members on this board, but pros like MartinSr and BarryK are never going to endorse the stuff......ever. As a matter of fact I am a backyard junk builder and I would never use it either(At least I have not thus far), but each to his own.

Chris
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  #131 (permalink)  
Old 11-15-2004, 08:02 AM
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Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by TurboS10
but pros like MartinSr and BarryK are never going to endorse the stuff......ever. Chris
Chirs, never say never (or ever ) As I have said here a number of times, there is a place for POR. Is it "Permanantly" getting rid of it? Hell no, I think everyone is in agreement on that. But for a serously rusted floor board where there are lap welds with rust between them and that sort of thing, it may very well be the "bestest" way to deal with it for a home hobbyest.

And I have to say the link Asennad posted is has some darn compelling agruments in it' s favor. (Click here)

I think I can say it is like abortion, I feel it should be legal but rare.
Did I just open up for another 129 posts ?
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  #132 (permalink)  
Old 11-15-2004, 09:13 AM
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Well I know I said I had no more to say BUT, the problem here is when someone falls for all the sales bull$#!^ and uses this stuff when conventional products would be a lot better. In my case I read many glowing reports about por 15 being the end of all rust and the absolute best rust preventer. After more research and listening to some common sense points about "miracle cures" I am now convinced I would have been far better off to have used epoxy on the rust free underside of my mustang, but then I was accused of being deaf,blind and ignorant because I was unwilling to CAUSE rust inside the doors just so I could use this crap! I would think that por might be used on something that is hopelessly rusted and not feasible to repair any other way(I use the term "repair" loosely here) but I cannot at this point see myself using it on a quality restoration or anything that I expect to last any length of time. "Wire mesh and bondo" have given home body repair a bad rap and in my opinion products like the so called rust cures only add to the problem. I will probably get hit with a lot of flack for saying that but although I am not a pro I still like to do things right so that I can be satisfied that what I get when I am finished will look right and LAST! There may be many different ways to do body repair right but simply covering rust and especially ADDING rust just does not make sense to me. If someone is thinking about using this stuff then my advice would be to take good look at the situation and then ask your self honestly what it would take in terms of trouble and expense to repair it if it fails? Be aware that once applied it can be a nightmare to remove almost nothing will stick to it once cured.
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  #133 (permalink)  
Old 11-15-2004, 10:06 AM
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I wish you guys would stop referring to home do-it yourselves
as not fully up to par hacks!
I'm a home do-it yourselfer and some of the best DETAILED jobs, I have ever seen comes from people inexperience and experience doing it at home after work.

Years ago when I was doing the vette's, some of the best ones I judged were done at home and I will never forget the black 62
that took second the guy did it in his carport and painted black in the back yard so he would not get over-spray on the house.
Oh did I say it was his first job, all I remember is his first name was Roger and a school teacher in Michigan.
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  #134 (permalink)  
Old 11-15-2004, 11:16 AM
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Barry- Thats exactly my point,I too work on my car at home and there is absolutely no reason for it to be less than right just because it was not done in a full time shop and by a pro! I should have said "home body repair has been UNFAIRLY given a bad rap" as that is what I meant. I try and research every step that I have a question about so I can get it right the first time but too many out there take what at the time seems like the easy way out only to find later that it would have been a lot better to have done it right in first place. Thats where the lure of the "miracle cures" can cause problems and If I had taken more time to check out por 15 I don't think I would have used it. In my case I used it as a rust preventive on clean metal and not as a short-cut but I can see now where there is better way to protect rust free metal. As they say "live and learn"
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  #135 (permalink)  
Old 11-15-2004, 11:34 AM
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I like to think we can take the time if we want to do it right.
Back in late 70's I was a painter for a shop that did nothing but Mercedes, Ferrari's, Lamborghini's. We were the warranty center and did restorations. I was the only painter for 4 body-men and even though these people paid through the nose to have work done at this shop, I was always under the gun to do it faster.
It wasn't like I was slow as it was not uncommon to turn 200-250 hours a week. The worst week I ever had in 3 years was 155
hours and got pissed off and quit and went home to work.
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