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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 04-10-2007, 05:45 AM
Don Meyer's Avatar
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Measure the anti-dive angle of the S-10 & keep it the same when doing the clip. It's measured by putting a angle finder on the upper control arm.

Measure the ride ht. of the Olds & the ht. of a stock S-10. If they are the same weld wth the frame & clip at the same ht. If you want it to be 1" lower raise the S-10 frame 1" higher than the olds. keep the olds frame LEVEL & the S-10 frame at the same anti dive angle as stock. The S-10 shoud be a good match for you.

Don

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 04-10-2007, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Meyer
Measure the anti-dive angle of the S-10 & keep it the same when doing the clip. It's measured by putting a angle finder on the upper control arm.

<snip>

Don
Ok, that makes sense. I've read several threads that advised keeping the bottom of the crossmember level, front to back, but that would preserve the anti-dive angle only if the crossmember was level originally.

The truck will have its tail in the air when unloaded and be nearly level when fully loaded. Since the Olds' curb weight is somewhere between those, should I split the difference in that angle at loaded and unloaded? Or is it insignificant?
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 04-18-2007, 12:06 AM
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An update:

I've located a parts truck. It's an extended cab, but I don't think that will matter. If all goes well, I'll have it by this weekend and can begin taking measurements and pictures. Who knows, it could turn out that it will be possible to convert the Olds without cutting the whole front of the frame off. Getting anxious to "have both frames side by side for eyeballing and tape measuring" as Chopt 48 advised.

In the meantime, I've been scouring the Suspension - Brakes - Steering forum and reading all the threads I can find about using the S-10 front suspension and those about full frame swaps. Haven't found anything that's a show-stopper, yet.

Will update here and in my journal as things develop.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 04-20-2007, 12:38 PM
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I have a donor truck -- 1983 S10 extended cab, short bed (photo attached). It's a rust bucket, but I'm mainly interested in the structures between the front hubs. Just out of curiosity, I put a battery in it, splashed some gas in the carburetor and the thing fired up. I didn't try to keep it running because the gas in the tank is probably like varnish by now. I might figure out some use for the 2.8L V6, later.

No one has yet warned me that the world will explode if I try this, so disassembly of the S10 has begun so I can get some measurements of the front end.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 04-20-2007, 01:09 PM
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Lookslike you have some part for the swap meet as well. Even got a tool box! Glad to hear you got that donor and good luck with the swap.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 04-20-2007, 06:23 PM
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Thanks home brew. I got the 'doghouse' off of it today. The rotors are shot, as I expected, but it's the geometry and the structure that I need, anyway.

It still bugs me; it just looks like I should be able to duplicate the mount points for the control arms on the Olds' frame instead of grafting part of the S10 frame onto the Olds. The springs under the S10 fit into shaped pockets on its frame just as they do on the Olds. The lower control arms on the Olds look downright spindly compared to the S10 and they are much longer. The upper arms on the Olds are simply the levers on the shocks.

I will be able to see better once I get the engine out of the way.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 04-20-2007, 08:18 PM
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S10 full frame swap

Here's a picture of my 41' Ford that has a complete S10 frame under it. The wheel base was a little bit longer than the Ford, but all I had to do to correct it was to move the spring hangers forward 3 inches. I did have to modify the trans tunnel and notch the rear floor board just in front of the seat riser for it to sit right on the frame, but the notches in the rear floor were very small. The hardest part of the swap was getting a radiator to clear the steering box. Your Olds might not have the same problem, but the engine compartment on the Ford is really narrow where the radiator needs to be.I'm very pleased with the swap after I finally got everything figured out on it, but I think doing it this way was easier than cliping the frame.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 04-20-2007, 08:56 PM
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That looks _good_! The side shot says you got those wheels centered!

In the rear 3/4 view, it doesn't look like you had to fight too much with the narrow S10 front. What offset did you use with those wheels? Did you use the stock S10 spindles?

That's just one fine looking machine. One of these days...
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 04-20-2007, 09:25 PM
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S10 spindles

Everything on the front of the chassis is factory stock. I didn't cut the front coils or replace the spindles. It gets it's lowered look from the factory "kick up built into the front of the chassis. One thing that I didn't mention in the first post was that I did use 2 inch lowering blocks on the rear leaf springs to bring the rear down a little, but it doesn't hurt the ride at all. The wheels are 8"x15" on the front and 10"x15" on the rear, and if I remember correctly the backspacing is 4 1/2" on all four wheels. I also built some mini tubs for the rear so the tires wouldn't rub when cornering.
Thanks for the compliments on the car. I'm pretty proud of it, mostly because it was built almost entirely out of scrounged parts and almost no aftermarket parts. If you would like I'll try to post a shot of the front of the car so you can see how it sets at that angle. I thought I had some pics of it but can't seem to find any tonite. I can take a few more pictures tommorow.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 04-20-2007, 11:33 PM
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It would be great to see more photos of that car. If it were mine, I'd be stuffing a photo gallery, too. This thread will fade out of sight pretty quickly, but a link to your photo gallery will follow you around with every post you make. If you have photos from when you did the frame swap, you could start a project journal. I think it's a sure bet that I'm not the only one interested in seeing what went into that.

I had already completely dismissed a full frame swap until seeing your '41. I can imagine aligning the two chopped off frame segments being more aggravation than fabricating body mounts and cutting for the difference in the rear frame kickups in the two frames. With the 'clip', there would be two parts floating in space with edges having to have critical mating surfaces and be in good alignment in roll, pitch, yaw and x, y and z axes. All of that is already aligned with the full swap, leaving mating the different contours by mount fabrication.


Side track: Can a Macpherson strut suspension be changed to a double wishbone by taking out the strut and adding an upper control arm?
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 04-21-2007, 07:35 PM
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Front of 41' with s10 swap

Here are some shots of the front of the 41' and one of the engine compartment. The combination of the way the fenders taper to the front on the inside and the location of the steering box is what makes the radiator placement hard to mount. The radiator is a 2 row aluminum that is 16" wide x 24" tall, but does a good job of cooling the engine.
As far as the strut rod suspension. I wouldn't have a clue if it could be done or not. I was at our local mega salvage yard last weekend and was looking at a Thunderbird suspension and had the same idea. I was wondering if you could just use the complete clip with the same control arms and maybe use coilover shocks. But I am not a suspension expert. Just a real curious welder with a little automotive experience and some machine shop skills.
I also have a 54' AD truck that I just started and have most of a Mustang II suspension minus the crossmember and a few misc parts. But the cost of rebuilding the Mustang II, buying the crossmember and upgrading the brakes still runs into quite a bit of change.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 04-21-2007, 11:37 PM
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Yeah, I'd definitely be putting those in a gallery or journal. (Some could be cropped, but even if kept as-is they should be posted where you can reference them at any time). It looks like you took advantage of that deep hood to compensate for the narrowing engine compartment. I'm so tired of seeing engines cluttered up with hoses and junk; it's good to see one so uncluttered.

In that front view, it looks like you've got it turned full lock to the left. Is the right tire close to rubbing the fender, if you were doing that at speed?

Does the offset needed on the wheels cause you any handling problems? It doesn't look like it adds a lot to the distance between centerline of the wheel and centerline of the ball joints, but I'm wondering if that extra distance shows up as bad feedback in the steering wheel when one tire hits a bump.

My guess is that your '41 body puts that S10 undercarriage at something between loaded and unloaded, so it won't be jumping and beating your butt going down the road. It also shouldn't wallow like an S10 that's loaded to capacity.

Did you keep the S10 fuel tank?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 41'srfun
As far as the strut rod suspension. I wouldn't have a clue if it could be done or not. I was at our local mega salvage yard last weekend and was looking at a Thunderbird suspension and had the same idea. I was wondering if you could just use the complete clip with the same control arms and maybe use coilover shocks. But I am not a suspension expert. Just a real curious welder with a little automotive experience and some machine shop skills.
Obviously I'm no expert either, but I'm still willing to skin my knuckles trying.

There's an old Volvo that mostly just sits under one of my trees, collecting dust and bird droppings. I always liked the way it handled except for when really pushing it through tight curves. That's where I think it suffers the most due to the strut. I hadn't considered why it did until Deuce kinda dismissed my idea of transplanting the strut front suspension. All these years and I never thought or read about the fact that the camber is static for a Macpherson strut. Well, at least I don't remember thinking about it before. I've never tried altering a front suspension before, either.

The front track of the '83 Volvo is 56.3" (reported) and the Olds is 56.375" (best I could measure, mounting plane to mounting plane). The GVWR of the Volvo is 4030 and the Olds' "max. weight" is 3945. The Volvo has its power rack mounted in front of the crossmember. They just seem like a good match except for the <bleep> strut towers and lack of camber change during suspension travel.

If I could take most of the Volvo front end and somehow graft on the S10's spindles and upper control arms, the cutting of the frame and the ~2" difference in front track between S10 and Olds would go away. I would also have the Volvo's ability to turn so tight it almost crabs. Figuring out the desired camber change throughout suspension travel would determine the mount point for the upper control arm.

That brings up another question -- why do front control arms trail?

Things would be so much easier if manufacturers published, online, dimensioned drawings of their products.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 04-22-2007, 07:56 AM
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s10 chassis

There wasn't enough room for the factory fuel tank. It would have interfered with the exhaust too much. I built my own fuel tank out of 16 guage steel and coated the inside with por15 tank sealer.
As far as the front tires rubbing when turning at speed, I haven't had any problems. It does look like they would rub any time it turns, but it's mostly an optical illusion. But then again I very seldom drive it real hard into a turn. It might hit a little if I got into a road race course, but I only take it to the dragstrip on occasion and cruise a little in it. I never have got the factory inner fenders to work though because they do rub badly when they are installed.
I did post some pics in my photo gallery last night and tried to start a journal, but it was late and I was too tired to deal with the frustration of it telling me that my password wasn't correct. I even read your thread on how to deal with it, but gave up and just posted the pics.
I've learned quite a bit just reading threads on this site about suspensions. There are folks on this site that have a lot of experience and have done things with suspensions that I could never afford to do. So it saves a lot of experimenting, or just guessing and suffering from the mistakes.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 04-22-2007, 07:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 41'srfun
I did post some pics in my photo gallery last night and tried to start a journal, but it was late and I was too tired to deal with the frustration of it telling me that my password wasn't correct. I even read your thread on how to deal with it, but gave up and just posted the pics.
It should work, now. I noticed a new thread in 'Site Suggestions and Help' where someone else was having trouble with a journal. Jon responded and discovered the problem was with the apostrophe in the user name. He fixed it, so yours should work, now.



I don't think clearance will be an issue whether I go with a full frame swap or just the front end from the S10, judging by your '41. It could fool me, though. I intend to radius the rear wheelwell openings, anyway. (The huge trim pieces on the rear fenders caused a lot of rust damage and the fender skirts were just plain ugly, IMO, so I have to do quite a bit of work on the rear fenders anyway).

Did a little rough measuring today -- the height of the S10 spindle (between ball joint mounting planes) is very close to the same distance from center to center of that whatchamacallit that carries the kingpin on the Olds. Likewise for the distance from wheel mounting plane to the centerline of the kingpin and spindle. The inclination appears to be the same (didn't measure; just eyeballed). I may be able to keep the Olds frame, crossmember and lower control arm. Have to check some angles
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 04-22-2007, 09:09 PM
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re: S10 to '49 Olds?

Grouch. taking a keen interest in your project.
i have a 41 Pontiac. Virtually identical frame/suspension as your 49 Olds. I am more terrified than your are of doing a subframe. I have also rejected the MustangII. I chased a pacer suspension until the dimensions and that unique upper spring mount frame configuration reared its ugly head. My car is also finished, and tearing it apart and starting over is daunting. I'm seriously considering just rebuilding it with some later model parts. (olds kept those stupid knee action shocks until mid 50's. Pontiac changed to tubes in 49). I'm trying to ***** the merits of all the work and risk (if I do it) of a subframe, to a rebuilt front end from around 1952 - 54. Near as I can tell, the big difference in the suspensions is the later anti dive technology, which I believe is tied into the caster set up. I'm tyrying to learn more about all of this, and maybe figure out a modification to the older setup to add that technology. Are you going to do journal entries with every tiny step documented for us no-nadas?
I have been able to find nearly nothing that covers frame/suspension upgrades to the setup in our particular cars.
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