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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 05-18-2007, 08:37 AM
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That is sure an interesting article. I remember when Rodders Digest was building that Pontiac (although I'm not sure of when "when" was ). Must be quite some time ago before "kits" when people actually built and engineered their way out of problems. Also did anyone notice that there are no website addresses in those ads.

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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 05-18-2007, 09:07 AM
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re: S10 to '49 Olds?

Wow, thanks. It looks like this could work on my 41. Great article.
1. Upper A mount looks easy. [Dive angle and Caster will be determined by where the mounting holes are drilled? Camber will be adjusted by shim? I'll have to sudy on this some, and reread the article, to estimate these things on mock up] OK so far?
2. I will need to reseach spindles, based on whether I want to change ride height, and bearing type. [If I use the orginal 58 spindles, I still have ball bearings? Does the ride height differ? Do I have to modify Idler arms and drag link? ] Comments like:"re tapering the spindles" give me pause. Guess I need to find a friendly machine shop.
Thanks for the tips.
One final question (yeah, right) any reason I can't do this job with the car assembled, fenders on, engine tranny in place, etc?
don
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 05-18-2007, 09:22 AM
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Caster will be adjusted with shims also. If you want alot off caster , mount the arm furthur back. That article applies to 55-57 so your 41 may need some other modifications.
The b-body spindles, the outer tie rod comes up from the bottom, my 55 the tie rods come down from the top, i'm not sure on your 41. But to help bumpsteer, it needs to be however yours is now. I borrowed a tie rod taper tool to ream mine enough to mount the tie rod. I think there are 2 common taper tools, you'll need the longer narrow one.
I did mine with the engine in place, good thing I did. The upper control arms are only about 1/2-3/4" away from my headers. Without the fenders would be alot easier to work on. Just make sure your frame is level front to rear and side to side.

added: I did mine with the fenders on, I had to trim the inner fenders to make room for the wider control arms.

I'm not sure on the spindle centerline height differance between the 58 spindle and newer spindles.

Last edited by chieftain; 05-18-2007 at 10:18 AM.
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old 05-18-2007, 03:49 PM
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re: S10 to '49 Olds?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chieftain
Caster will be adjusted with shims also. If you want alot off caster , mount the arm furthur back. That article applies to 55-57 so your 41 may need some other modifications.

Sorry, lost me there. Where would you put the shims to change Caster?

The b-body spindles, the outer tie rod comes up from the bottom, my 55 the tie rods come down from the top, i'm not sure on your 41. But to help bumpsteer, it needs to be however yours is now.

I'll check it out and make a note.

I borrowed a tie rod taper tool to ream mine enough to mount the tie rod. I think there are 2 common taper tools, you'll need the longer narrow one.
I did mine with the engine in place, good thing I did. The upper control arms are only about 1/2-3/4" away from my headers. Without the fenders would be alot easier to work on. Just make sure your frame is level front to rear and side to side.

added: I did mine with the fenders on, I had to trim the inner fenders to make room for the wider control arms.

music to my ears.

I'm not sure on the spindle centerline height differance between the 58 spindle and newer spindles.
This I can figure out.

Thanks again.
Grouch, you getting this??
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Old 05-18-2007, 09:33 PM
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The same shims that adjust camber on the upper control arm also adjust caster. It depends on how you use them, for instance, take an 1/8" from the front to rear bolt and it would adjust caster up about 1 degree. Removing or adding shims equally front and rear will only change camber, any other differance will adjust caster. Just think of the upper arm 2 mounting point at the frame than the upper ball joint as a triangle. moving around the 2 points at the frame will move the ball joint forward or rearward. Or inward or outward, depending on what you do with the shims.
Hope that makes sense .
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Old 05-21-2007, 01:54 PM
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re: S10 to '49 Olds?

OK chieftan, can we continue with my education?
first off, what is a "b" body?
Next, when you say the tie rod comes up from the bottom. On mine, the idler arm and pitman arm are below the center link and come up into the bottom of it. The tie rods are neither up or down, but come out of the front of the centerlink.

I've looked at disc conversion kits, but what I find comes with spindles, master cylinder, etc. etc. Scarebird sells just the brackets to adapt for the calipers, in just about every car/year imaginable. Did you find just the calipers/rotors/hubs to fit the 63 spindles? Or did you buy a kit, and order it for a 63 Pontiac?
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Old 05-21-2007, 02:41 PM
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B body applies to 60's-70's full size Pontiacs, Chevys are also b bodies but not all parts are interchangeble. Pontiac used differant suspension and frame than Chevy. Not until 71 did GM use the same brakes and suspension throughout the full size cars.
The retaper on the tie rod is how they hook up to the steering knuckles. Some mount from the top, some the bottom. To help with bumpsteer, the tie rod assembly needs to be as close to the same angle as the lower control arm.
The Scarebird brackets come with instructions for what parts you needs to buy. Mine is an older kit, I have to machine down the o.d. of the brake hub enough to mount a rear 77-79 Seviller rear rotor and use a GM intermediate caliper.
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old 05-21-2007, 04:14 PM
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re: S10 to '49 Olds?

OK. I get where the taper may need reversing, no sweat.
Read more from scarebird. The tempest install mentions machining down the old hub, the full body pontiac install didn't mention that. Also the tempest install listed what you need, rear Seville rotors/S10 calipers and pads, etc. Again the full body Pontiac install didn't have that info. Unless you know offhand, I'll email them and get that info.
I would like to gather all this before I start, so....
58 Pontiac upper and lower A frames - R & L.
Need the springs, but not the spindles, hubs, drums. backing plates etc.
62 - 70 Pontiac spindles, with hubs, if I don't want ball bearings?
Are those the right years? I look for spindle location on the knuckle to adjust
ride height? You mentioned the new spindles made the track wider by 1/2
inch, is that per side? This could be a problem as I am already very tight
with the 215x15 tires up front. I assume this is due to the offset of the
spindle to the ball joints. Do other years have less offset?
Rotors and Calipers per Squarebirds recommendations
Possibly new flex lines (I just replaced them), or are there adapters to get them to fit the calipers?
I may/will have to shorten the centerlink due to the change in steering arms?

Couple of off the wall questions. Any specific reason not to use Tempest spindles? Are they completely different? .
Have you considered changing out the old steering box? (I'd like to put in a tilt column with turn signals built in etc. but don't know which box would match up well with the linkage, no problem mating a new box to a new column) Seems like now would be the time to change it out.
Thanks again, don
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Old 05-21-2007, 05:27 PM
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I would double check with Scarebird to see whats needed with the kit.

I reused the springs that was in my 55, since they were already designed for my car. I had to shorten them up because of the differance of the spring pocket in the lower arm.

You'll may find no differance at in the spindle height differance thru the years. 62-68 tapered bearings. I have a catalog here thats shows 61 for Police only for tapered bearings. Ball bearings are'nt totally bad, especially with todays grease is alot better. Just about any fwd car has a ball bearing assembly. If you could get all the 58 stuff at a reasonalbe price it may be worth it. The 58 rear would be nice if the guy had it. The 57-64 Pontiac/Olds 9.3" ring gear rear end is one the stronger rear ends ever made. Alot of the early gassers/hotrods used that rear end back in the day. Although 57-58 are only 29 spline, 59-64 are 31 spline and wider.

You may have to go with a more offset wheel if it pushes it out too far. I don't remember exactly how much of a differance it made. Will your currant wheels evan fit over disc brakes?

If your 41 is like my 55, it used 1/4" lines on the front as well. You'll at least need new hoses and maybe adapters to go from 1/4" to 3/16".

I shorted the inner tie rod not centerlink, go thru the article , it gives some direction on shortening the inner tie rod. On mine I had to shorten them about 3". once you get them bolted up, make sure your gearbox is centered and spindles in the stright ahead and measure how much will be needed.

I kept my manual steering , just the way I like it. It's a 1 piece gearbox/column with turn signal switches.

The Tempest stuff it totaly differant. From the article , I know what works and the stuff is designed for a bigger car.

Added: Double Check with Scarebird, I think the kit for my car has been updated so you don't even have to reuse the drum hub, the same may apply to the 58 spindles. I know on his newest 55-57 kit, he had some spacers made and switch it over to tapered bearings and used a regular full size rotor.

Last edited by chieftain; 05-21-2007 at 05:42 PM.
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old 05-21-2007, 05:50 PM
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re: S10 to '49 Olds?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chieftain
I would double check with Scarebird to see whats needed with the kit.

will do

I reused the springs that was in my 55, since they were already designed for my car. I had to shorten them up because of the differance of the spring pocket in the lower arm.

I've already chopped mine, maybe too much.

You'll may find no differance at in the spindle height differance thru the years. 62-68 tapered bearings.

62 - 68, not 62 - 70, OK

I have a catalog here thats shows 61 for Police only for tapered bearings. Ball bearings are'nt totally bad, especially with todays grease is alot better. Just about any fwd car has a ball bearing assembly. If you could get all the 58 stuff at a reasonalbe price it may be worth it.

If it gets too complicated for me, I may just do the whole 58 thing.
They have 12 x 2 1/4 drums and 1 1/8 wheel cylinders which is a big
improvement over what I have now.

The 58 rear would be nice if the guy had it. The 57-64 Pontiac/Olds 9.3" ring gear rear end is one the stronger rear ends ever made. Alot of the early gassers/hotrods used that rear end back in the day. Although 57-58 are only 29 spline, 59-64 are 31 spline and wider.

You may have to go with a more offset wheel if it pushes it out too far. I don't remember exactly how much of a differance it made. Will your currant wheels evan fit over disc brakes?

I'm currently running a set of Cragar SS 15 inch rims. Not sure I could
find them in a different offset, and I really like them on this car.

If your 41 is like my 55, it used 1/4" lines on the front as well. You'll at least need new hoses and maybe adapters to go from 1/4" to 3/16".

Already converted the front lines to 3/16 when I put in the new MC
and booster.

I shorted the inner tie rod not centerlink, go thru the article , it gives some direction on shortening the inner tie rod. On mine I had to shorten them about 3". once you get them bolted up, make sure your gearbox is centered and spindles in the stright ahead and measure how much will be needed.

misunderstood that.

I kept my manual steering , just the way I like it. It's a 1 piece gearbox/column with turn signal switches.

mine is a one piece gearbox/column also, however, the horn wire is
shorted out inside somewhere, it didn't come with turn signals, and the
box has no adjustment left and has just a little play. So, I'm a candidate
for a new column/box. I may look at the 58 column/box if it is still in the
car I'm getting the front end from. It should bolt right up.

The Tempest stuff it totaly differant. From the article , I know what works and the stuff is designed for a bigger car.
Thanks again for the help, I emailed scarebird.
don
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old 05-21-2007, 06:26 PM
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Came across this site the yesterday looking for parts for my s10. Thought it might help some people.
I have nothing to do with this site or know anyone that does so I hope its not against the rules.

http://www.ad-engineering.com/
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Old 05-21-2007, 07:10 PM
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I mistyped that deal- 62 and up are tapered bearings. If you could find a decent setup with good rotors, you could also get a factory 69-70 disc brake assembly.

IIRC I cut 2 coils off total each spring, one for the pocket differance and one for another 2" of drop.
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Old 05-22-2007, 08:55 AM
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s10 frame swap

Heard back from scarebird.
they make the bracket for the 63 spindles. List the rotors as 77 Bonneville and calipers for 88-91 GMC 1500 PU. (bound to be exchanges for them).
I priced it out with used A frames and spindles, everything else new, including bushings, ball joints, rotors,hubs, bearings, seals, calipers, brake hoses, scarebird brackets, etc, looks like about $1,000.00
To rebuild my 41 with the same new parts would be that or more, and I'd still have crap.

About the only concern left is the offset on the spindles, making the front wheels too wide. You mentioned 69-70 disc brake assembly. You talking full size Pontiac? Ball joints the same, or doable? Maybe those spindles dont have as much offset.

I may be Ok with springs then. I cut 1 1/2 coils off. Most of that was too adjust for the SBC being lighter and further back than the orig. engine.
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Old 05-22-2007, 09:21 AM
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69-70 Pontiac only , the Chevy 69-70 brakes are differant. But getting a good set of rotors may be difficult to find. At least with the Scarebird stuff your using more common brake parts. Thats his whole idea behind his kits.

I'll have to double check the measurement between both my 55's on the offset. My parts car still has the kingpin setup. Without having a 69-70 setup to meausure ? I would think it would be the same since it was an option, why would gm have a differant front track width for disc brake cars?
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Old 05-22-2007, 03:31 PM
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re: S10 to '49 Olds?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chieftain
69-70 Pontiac only , the Chevy 69-70 brakes are differant. But getting a good set of rotors may be difficult to find. At least with the Scarebird stuff your using more common brake parts. Thats his whole idea behind his kits.

You are 100% right. 69-70 rotors are not available anywhere I checked.
Better to go with the scarebird recommendations.

I'll have to double check the measurement between both my 55's on the offset. My parts car still has the kingpin setup. Without having a 69-70 setup to meausure ? I would think it would be the same since it was an option, why would gm have a differant front track width for disc brake cars?
I wouldn't expect a difference between drum and discs. I was thinking the later cars may have had a different frame width or A arm length, so the spindle might not have the same offset. Because the rotors are impossible to replace, Ive abandoned that idea. Would still like to know the difference in the original kingpin hub width compared to the new setup. See if it will be a problem.
Right now, I'm back to square one. The salvage yard that had the 58 front end, sold the whole car last weekend. So, I'm looking for a set of 58 A frames. Everything else looks pretty easy to find.
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