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  #76 (permalink)  
Old 06-21-2007, 01:05 PM
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re: S10 to '49 Olds?

Yeah, if it made sense, we wouldn't be running around in circles. I feel we are close to solving this thing, and when we know we have the answers we'll do some kind of tech article on it. I'm not sure tubular control arms is an "inexpensive" way to go, and I certainly couldn't provide the engineering.
What we hope to get is a guide that shows, if you own a 39 - 57 Pontiac/Olds/Buick, you get this upper, this lower, this spindle, etc. and it is basically a bolt in solution (except for upper mounts, which is a simple design), and these are your brake options. Results should be comparable to a GM subframe, that many of us are not competent to perform.
And then there is the more compelling if less rational reason...
I love this crap.

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  #77 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2007, 01:02 PM
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re: s10 to 49 Olds

Working on the coversion, will do a complete update when finished and road tested. In the meantime - I had a very difficult time locating the 58 Pontiac control arms. Attached is a message from Freeman Automotive offering a set.
(At less than I paid, I might add). If any of you are seriously considering this upgrade, and I believe you will when all the results are in, you may want to
get them. Especially the lowers. They are one of a kind. If you have access to other 58 - 60 BOP for uppers cheap, you may want to just get the lowers now.
I have no connection with, nor past history with these people. They are one of only 2 responses to a nationwide net search for these parts, and I purchased the other set, before this came in.
.
From: Freman's Auto [mailto:fremansauto@bigplanet.com]

To: 'djw829@sbcglobal.net'
Subject: 1958 Pontiac

FREMAN'S AUTO
Neil Freman
138 Kountz Road
Whitehall, MT. 59759
Ph: 1-406-287-5436
Fax: 1-406-287-9103
fremansauto@bigplanet.com
www.fremansauto.com <http://www.fremansauto.com/>


Date: May 25, 2007

Attn: Don Wallace
re: 1958 Pontiac
We have the following:

Good used upper and lower control arms $75.00
Plus: Packing/Shipping/Insurance $20.00 for one
Plus: Packing/Shipping/Insurance $50.00 for set of 4

* Please refer back to the left of our homepage website (or by clicking on one
of the links below)
HOW DO I ORDER <http://www.fremansauto.com/howdoiorder/>
and SHIPPING INFORMATION <http://www.fremansauto.com/shippinginformation/> .
* These links should answer any questions you have about placing an order
and/or shipping information.
* All parts quoted are in good used condition unless otherwise noted.
* We accept - Personal checks, Money Orders, Cashier's Checks. Credit card
payments via PAY PAL

Thank you for your interest.
We Appreciate Your Business!

Best regards,
Neil Freman
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  #78 (permalink)  
Old 08-19-2007, 03:39 PM
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re: s10 to 49 Olds

Chieftain, Grouch, chopt48 and any lurkers watching this thread. I have an update.
IT WORKS. I will do some kind of tech article, or Recap on what I learned and how I got there, but it works. The car rides better than ever and tracks great at 80MPH. Best of all, it stops. Thanks to everyone for their input here and in several other posts that added to the body knowledge.
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  #79 (permalink)  
Old 08-19-2007, 04:48 PM
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That's great news Don, do you remember the caster and camber angles the car got set to? I figure toe-in would be about 1/8" positive?

Now I just need to talk you into your next project by swapping out that sbc for a Pontiac engine LOL.
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  #80 (permalink)  
Old 08-19-2007, 06:12 PM
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kEWL BEANS, congrats on getting the car up to where it is FUN to drive.
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  #81 (permalink)  
Old 08-19-2007, 08:18 PM
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re: S10 to '49 Olds?

Right now I'm at 2 1/4 - 2 1/2 caster. 0 to 0 negative camber and 1/8 toe in. I'll try to cover that in the recap. Seems like I lost some camber/caster when I got it all together and the weight on it. Like any other first time deal, I could do better the next time. (I had 1/2 negative camber and only 1 1/2 pos. caster in my neutral position. Had to pull shims to get it where it is. I was hoping for 0 and +3 in the neutral position.)

My setup is good for manual steering. For power it should be up higher, 4 1/5 to 6 depending on the car and how light the steering is. I still want to lower the rear a tad, so I may get a little more out of it. But it really is amazing what a little geometry change can do for the handling.

I'm still tweaking the brakes. It stops fine, but i can't quite put you thru the windshield. I think the 7in single diaphram booster may be just adequate. A dual diaphram 7, or a straight 10 in. booster is probably the perfect match.

For proper perspective - our daily drivers are a Jaguar XK8 and a Dodge Magnum. Both have 4 wheel independent suspension and 4 wheels disc brakes, so my expectations may be a little high.
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  #82 (permalink)  
Old 08-19-2007, 08:19 PM
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Chieftain, If I had built it from scratch, it would have a pontiac drivetrain. Just because it should.
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  #83 (permalink)  
Old 10-12-2007, 07:33 AM
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re: S10 to '49 Olds?

Hey grouch. 6 months later......
My 41 pontiac front end is done,and my buddies 49olds is coming along nicely.
I did a rambling rendition on the crankshaft coalition
" 37 - 57 Buick Olds Pont suspension upgrade" let me know if you have any questions.
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  #84 (permalink)  
Old 11-07-2007, 09:12 PM
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re: S10 to '49 Olds?

finished the rack and pinion install. Did a wiki http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/w...inion_Steering

final score - 58 Pontiac upper and lower control arms and ball joints, fabricated upper mounts, CPP 65 Chevy dropped spindles, 64 chevelle steering arms, Chevelle discs and calipers, Corvette master cylinder, 7 in booster, 72 Cougar springs, 89 dodge shocks, 88 Cavalier rack, 85 Chevy power steering pump, custom hoses, 84 chevy van tilt column, geo hanging pedals, firebird steering wheel (temp till I can build a banjo wheel) Misc. borgeson parts, rear lowering blocks.

Letting the wife drive it, priceless.
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  #85 (permalink)  
Old 02-20-2008, 10:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldguy829
Hey grouch. 6 months later......
My 41 pontiac front end is done,and my buddies 49olds is coming along nicely.
I did a rambling rendition on the crankshaft coalition
" 37 - 57 Buick Olds Pont suspension upgrade" let me know if you have any questions.
OMG, oldguy829! Your "rambling rendition", 37 - 57 Buick Olds Pont suspension upgrade, is fantastic! It's all laid out -- stock parts, custom parts, process, sources, options -- without butchering the frame.

The last time I checked this thread, you and chopt48 were still hashing out geometries and the '58 Pontiac parts. I feel like a rat deserting you in the middle of it. I've been completely absorbed with building my son's house and am just now getting time to start up where I left off on my Olds. I should've been there with camera and tape measure. Don't know what else to say but, sorry.

It is just awesome to see that you not only worked out the suspension upgrade so well, but generalized it for 3 models over a range of years and then documented it beautifully! The wiki document on the rack and pinion install from a Cavalier is a big pile of tasty icing on the cake. Congrats, kudos and bravo for one heckuva job!
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  #86 (permalink)  
Old 02-21-2008, 09:37 AM
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re: S10 to '49 Olds?

Grouch, thanks for the kind words. Wondered what happened to you.
My buddy still doesn't have his 49 on the road, but he's close. Anxious to drive it with the 605 power steering box, and compare it to the R&P. didn't have a choice on the pontiac, but i just bought a 53 Stude to butcher, so I'd like a first hand comparison. R&P is definetley tight and quick.
keep in touch, don
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  #87 (permalink)  
Old 02-22-2008, 11:22 PM
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I want to see what you do to that '53! I grew up with one next door. For years, I thought it was a sports car from the '60s because of its shape. (The well-to-do old gentleman who owned it could always find a job around his place for a kid needing spending money).

A question for you regarding your wiki article on the BOP suspension: Is the disc brake kit you mention as an option the 6570SWBKD kit? I don't see anything in that catalog entry about the specific drop spindle (CP30101) you reference, but it otherwise seems to match your description.

I may take a similar route as your friend and just graft ball joint mounts on the original '49 Olds lower control arms. Mine are not in bad shape.

It may be nuts and more work, but I like the idea of adapting rather than cutting the frame off at the firewall.
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  #88 (permalink)  
Old 02-24-2008, 04:29 PM
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re: S10 to '49 Olds?

On the drop spindle, it is hard to find. Keep going down the page and there is a section on just spindles. That's where I found it. Had to call and confirm that that was the spindle in the 6570SWBKD kit.
On a do over, I would have gotten the double diaphragm or moved some stuff to get a bigger booster in there. The 7 inch single diaphragm is marginal. I'm used to it now, and no big deal, car stops fine, but it doesn't feel like full power brakes.
Grafting to the lowers make sense, cause the 58 lowers are hard to find and expensive. Lots of uppers will work. Personally, I think it is less work than subframing it, and you can't really go far wrong. Worst case, you get the upper mount in the wrong place and have to cut it off and remount it.
You may want to create your own lower ball joint mount. We used the ford courier ball joints cause of the funny crows foot design, and my buddy is basically a ford guy. There may be something else that works better.
The R&P conversion was a much bigger deal, so an old fashioned power box makes sense. All my steering linkage was solid, the R&P was strictly because I didn't have room to get a box in there.
The Stude is still a mystery. I know nothing about them, just liked the body.
You know swirling around in the back of my head is the next "Frankenstein" upgrade.

Bounce this around.... Original stude lowers, but I find some lowers with ball joints that are a similar shape and width. Hack off the outside 6 inches of the stude, and inner 6 inches of the later model. Stack and weld them together with the new ones on top.
It converts the the lowers to ball joints, but effectively does what a drop spindle does, lowers the frame about 2 inches compared to the hub mount height. Then I could go drop spindles if needed and end up 4 inches low, with full suspension. Just a daydream at this point, cause I can't get the Stude till the end of March, when Nebraska thaws out, to see if a modified version of our upgrade would work. But you can bet it's the first thing I'll look at.
Good luck on your 49, keep us posted.
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  #89 (permalink)  
Old 01-06-2009, 12:10 PM
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39 Olds Frame Conversion

Hello all, I'm new to this forum and going to upgrade the front suspension and brakes on my 39 olds coupe this spring. I have read the wiki 37-57 BOP suspension upgrade 5 times and have decided that is the route I'm going to take . I was going to put a 72 camaro sub-frame on but I REALLY didn't want to cut the frame and cut all the inner fender sheet metal to fit the new sub-frame so I nixed that idea. I have tracked down a set of 58 Pont upper and lower arms and I'm now trying to decide on a spindle to use so that I don't go to far in the hole cash wise . I also have a question for oldguy829. In the WIKI there is a close-up photo from above showing the Upper mount on the frame. In relation to the cross member the upper mount seems to be rotated clockwise. Why is that? To achieve proper Caster at static ? Also, did you use any shims when you set-up the mounts in there static position? GREAT WORK on the WIKI
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  #90 (permalink)  
Old 01-07-2009, 07:03 AM
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The mount angled is for anti-dive. I helped oldguy829 with some of his setup and thats were I set up my 55 and oldguy829'sset up his Pontiac. IIRC we went with an angle about 10 to 15*. The front needs to be higher on both sides. I got that angle measurment from a camero subframe I had here for awile. When I set mine up I started with 2 1/8" shims on each bolt , 3 would probably work also. Just remember when you set this up the coil spring should be out , frame level f&r and side to side and lower control arm level to the ground.

If your keeping manual steering 0 degrees caster is going to be enough, power steering you can go 2-3 degrees. Higher caster handles better, but also increases steering effort, the power steering makes up for that and can be set quite abit higher. The manual can be set higher as well.

Last edited by chieftain; 01-07-2009 at 07:54 AM.
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