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Old 04-21-2008, 07:52 AM
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S10 Air conditioner upgrade

I just bought a 1995 S10 truck with a 2.2 liter motor. The air is not working, and I was told it needed a total redo. It had the old R-12 in it. Do they make a kit to change it over to the new stuff and if so where can I get a kit? If they don't sell a kit, what needs to be changed to change it over. Thanks.

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Old 04-21-2008, 09:33 AM
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belive it or not, Wal Mart sells the R12-134A conversion kit. it does not cool as well as R12 tho.. you could take your truck to an A/C shop and they can fill it back up with R12, and have no conversion needed.
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Old 04-21-2008, 09:36 AM
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I believe the compressor is out on it. Not sure yet. I think to get an R-12 compressor is expensive. I have quite a few extra parts off my drag truck that will work on this one. Just not sure what all has to be replaced. Thanks.
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Old 04-21-2008, 07:27 PM
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AC retro fit

Finally something simple to solve.
There are two ways to do the deal. Number one is to go to the auto parts and buy the R-134 retro kit and that gives you instructions and the necessary fittings for change over. If the system is working leak free and is not full of crap, it may work for a short time, usually not for too long.

Why won't it work for long? Because when you decided to recharge the system was empty or not working right? That means that it has a leak somewhere. Therefore unless you have fixed the leak, it will quit in a short time and will probably take the compressor with it. Also of import is that the R-134 oil that is supplied with the kit does not mix well with the old oil still in the dryer or compressor and should be taken out before retrofitting. The kit guys don't tell you this. What happens is that the residual oil for R-12 when mixed with castor or other R-134 oils caused a corrosive reaction and the compressor head then gets scored and pitted. Failure is not too far away.
See number two!!!!

Number two...... Not suggested unless you know what the heck to do. If the system is already drained off then you don't have to have a reclaim system for the old R-12. You are not supposed to vent into the air. It pisses Al Gore off!

Remove a line from the AC compressor. Suggest you disconnect the low side line. Pour into the line about a pint of AC line cleaner (I use mineral spirits cause its cheaper), then disconnect the other line from the compressor and place the open end into a old coffee can, then apply low pressure to the low side line and push the cleaner through the system. This will push out any crap in the system and will also cut the old R-12 camfor oil used to protect the compressor. You will probably see lots of gray or black crap come out of the line in the can. If you don't see clean fluid coming out at the time that the discharge becomes strictly air, then do the process again until clean fluid comes out. Once the lines, evaporator, and condenser are clear and blow plain air, continue to blow air through the system for another few minutes. Then take tape and close off the open ends of the lines. You should also locate the expansion valve and remove it for cleaning or replace it. Some cars use a flowrator system (Chevy and Ford) and this valve is located in the AC line as it enters the condensor at the firewall and is in the suction line. It is always located where the line can be disconnected. If you disconnect the line you can look into the line in the firewall and see a funny looking thing that has a screen material covering it and a small brass venutri and a plastic housing....... I suggest to replace it rather then clean. They are very cheap and not worth screwing with the old one. $5.00

The next thing to do is purge all the oil out of the compressor. You can take it off the car (suggested) or you try and do it on the car. This is easy! Put some cleaner in one side of the compressor, suction side (high) recommended, then spin the compressor by hand several times until you see the oils and crap come out. Repeat until it shows clear. Then apply low pressure air and spin till dry.

The system is now clear. And ready to service further. If you are sure that the system does not leak attach a vac pump and begin sucking it down. Keep the manifold gauges in the vac line so you can watch what is going on. You must pull at least a 26 or better. If not you have a leak. Find the leak and try again. Stop leak applied after recharge WILL NOT WORK---NEVER--NEVER--NEVER! Find the leak.

If all is well and the system reaches the number on vac. Allow the pump to run a minimum of 2 hrs. to continue to dry and atomize in vac any impurities. Now close off the valve on the manifold gauge. This closes the AC system on the car. Let stand closed off for an hour or so. Watch the gauges and see if the system will maintain a vac without dropping. It is normal when first closing the valve to see a slight drop in inches of vac. If the system holds this number constant then it is safe to say--- charge it.

The next thing to be done it to suck by vac 4oz. of Ester oil into the sealed system. To do that use a chared can, or pour 4ozs. into a small cup, attach a hose with the end cut off to you manifold gauge set. Put the cut off end into the cup without letting any air into the system and slowly open the manifold valve to the blue line. The oil will be sucked into the system. When the oil is in close the valve without letting any air in. With AC air is not a friend. Remove the manifold line with the cutoff end and hook up a can off R-134. Slowly open up the blue line and let the vac in the system suck in the R-134. Repeat until equalized.

Now start the car and turn on the AC system. If the AC clutch does not pick up on its own try flashing across the AC connector with a hot wire jumper. If the clutch picks up then you have a pressure switch that is not made up. Usually the low pressure switch. At this stage always keep a can of R-134 on the manifold constantly keeping pressure on the system. Manually run the compressor clutch for a few seconds at a time and this should draw enough R-134 into the system to make up the low pressure switch and then the compressor should begin to cycle on its own.

Keep close track of the amount of R-134 you are putting into the system. Too much hurts the expansion and the system will not cool very well, and too little? I think you can figure that one out?

Recharge retro rule of thumb : R134 charge is 85% of R-12 charge.

The suction side should read about 28 to 33, thats really ideal, the high side should read ---**%$&# I can't remember!!!! Maybe, me thinks around 150 to 185.... On really hot days at idle that number can jump up quickly to around 300 even ------ bang!!! Don't worry there is a high pressure switch or cutout on the compressor.


If you don't have a vac. pump you are in trouble. The system in order to work properly has to be drawn down under absolute vac. 26--27 inches of vac. Have fun!!! Big Don
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Old 04-22-2008, 06:58 AM
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Thanks Don for all the advise. I am printing a copy to take to the shop with me so I don't miss a thing.
I will let everyone know how it goes.
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Old 04-22-2008, 08:06 PM
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S-10 Ac

The compressor for R-12 and R134 are the same and are not too expensive. I always get compressors from auto Zone, best pricing and a great warranty. Should be able to snag one for under $175, however if you replace the compressor you will not have to purge it. New compressors come with Ester oil, or the equvilant already in them. Just put it in and suck and check and then charge.....

IT IS A MISNOMER THAT 134 WON'T COOL AS WELL AS 12.
It will but you must be correct on the charge... Remember R-134 is 85% of the R-12 charge. The only real difference is the expansion rate difference between the two. R-134 has more expansion so you must charge less.

Install a new dryer. $30 can save you a few hundred in the long run. Hey, also order it online from AZ and they will deliver it to your house and you can even take the old one to any AZ store and recover the core charge. How cool is that?

To get max cooling out of the system hook up manifold gauge setup and charge it through them. Oh, the measure of charge is by weight not volume. The number you are looking for on the suction or low side is 28 to 34. If you can hit those numbers then it will cool as good as anything ever did. The suction numbers will usually translate (ruffly) into cooling temp at the interior coil, or dash register. If everything is according to Hoyle---- can you imagine mid 30's temp coming outa you dash board.... Brrrrrrr!

[]Rule of thumb in expansion and cooling capability---- The max temp difference is 40 degrees drop. So if it is 90 at 50% humidity the best that you can get is 50 degree AC. Now if the humidity is 85% or higher (like Mississippi) the temp conversion or drop will be much less. Maybe 35 degree difference. If you see ice on the line going into the fire wall line, then the charge is too low or there is moisture in the system. If you see condensation on that same line and the line feels cold--- things are just right. The more humid it is the more condensation you will get.

Never.... never.... recharge the system by dumping freon directly into the compressor.... and although shaking the can can help speed up the charge, never invert the can for more then a few seconds. Inverting the can will allow fluid, not gas, to enter directly into the compressor and the head may freeze and lock up and ruin the compressor. Enough for now of my brain dump. BTW--- I know about all the screw ups cause I have done them :-)

Last edited by Big Don; 04-22-2008 at 08:25 PM.
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Old 04-22-2008, 10:06 PM
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The spec's I try to get here in southern California on a hot day is with the fan clutch or cooling fans working perfectly low side 26-30 and not cycling whit the engine RPM at cruise, say on the freeway, and the high side at least 225 at the same RPM. I also use a 2 liter bottle of water with 5 1/16" holes drilled in the cap to spray water across the condenser for compressor cycle and a drop below 225 on the high side. It is easy to get R134A freon to blow below freezing out of the vents. Case in point a 1995 Ford Windstar with front and rear A/C 28 degrees and you can see your breath on a 100 degree day. Now that is BRRRRRRRRRR!
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Old 04-22-2008, 10:41 PM
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Make sure you find the fixed orifice/expansion valve in the suction hard line(it will have some crimps in the hard line about 4" from the connection) located mid way between the radiator and firewall down by the frame on your vehicle, and grab it with a pair of needle nose pliers to pull it out. If there is any junk(black strings and , or shiny metal)on it the compressor is history. Don't forget to back flush the condenser and evaporator core real good to remove the contaminants. It is also best to get the correct fixed orifice to use with R134A freon.

It's easy to tell where the original leak is because it will be covered in dirt and oil mixture real thick.
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Old 04-22-2008, 11:52 PM
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air conditionar cycle

i have improved air conditionar cycle by using a new innovative device.to learn more mail me at bilalkaramat@gmail.com if any body have interest in it or doing work on it.it is top secret yet.
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Old 04-23-2008, 06:18 AM
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Good information here. I'm getting ready to do some AC work on 3 of my vehicles and two of them (the Trans Am and Escort) will need to be retrofitted with R134. I've never had much luck with the local AC people, so I'm going to do it myself. I just bought a new vacuum pump (Robinair 15600).
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Old 04-23-2008, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MAUSS
Good information here. I'm getting ready to do some AC work on 3 of my vehicles and two of them (the Trans Am and Escort) will need to be retrofitted with R134. I've never had much luck with the local AC people, so I'm going to do it myself. I just bought a new vacuum pump (Robinair 15600).
Follow what Big Don said and what I do and let it evacuate for at least 1 hour. You need to get all of the moisture out of the system. Also get a seal kit with the correct o'rings for R134A.
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Old 04-23-2008, 09:47 AM
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OK Well this is alot of good info. I just got the truck last night. As soon as I put it in my shop I will find out what is really wrong with it.
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Old 04-23-2008, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
you could take your truck to an A/C shop and they can fill it back up with R12, and have no conversion needed.
You can't do this, as it is illeagal to install R-12 now. As far as R134a not cooling as well, this is not a misnomer, but also is not caused by the newer refrigerant. The R134a works extremely well in a system designed for R134a. However, in an R-12 system, it will not have the cooling performance of R-12. This is due to R134a running higher pressures, and generally is not as efficient as R-12. The evaporator and condenser in an R-134a system are about 30% larger, and when R-134a is run in an R-12 system, the smaller components do not have the capacity needed for efficient R-134a operation. It still cools, just not as well as the old R-12. Properly charged, it will cool, and you may not notice the difference, but I have measured it at the evaproator.

Filling an A/C system after it has been opened is not really a great job to do for a DIY, unless you have access to the proper tools. You MUST evacuate the system for no less than 30 minutes, I prefer 1 hour or more. If you replace the drier, do not open the unit or remove the caps from the ports untill you are ready to install it. On an abvove average humid day, 15-30 minutes will destroy the dessicant in the drier, rendering it usless.

Do a search on this site, as A/C retrofit and alternative refrigerants have been discussed in depth.
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Old 04-23-2008, 07:30 PM
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Big Don is right. I have a 1994 GMC Sonoma and just replaced the compressor and use r-134A and it is an extra cab. It will freeze you out. I live in southern Louisiana where it is hot and humid and I rarely run it on high.Do what he says and you should be very happy with the results.
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Old 04-23-2008, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbchevfreak
You can't do this, as it is illeagal to install R-12 now. As far as R134a not cooling as well, this is not a misnomer, but also is not caused by the newer refrigerant. The R134a works extremely well in a system designed for R134a. However, in an R-12 system, it will not have the cooling performance of R-12. This is due to R134a running higher pressures, and generally is not as efficient as R-12. The evaporator and condenser in an R-134a system are about 30% larger, and when R-134a is run in an R-12 system, the smaller components do not have the capacity needed for efficient R-134a operation. It still cools, just not as well as the old R-12. Properly charged, it will cool, and you may not notice the difference, but I have measured it at the evaproator.

Filling an A/C system after it has been opened is not really a great job to do for a DIY, unless you have access to the proper tools. You MUST evacuate the system for no less than 30 minutes, I prefer 1 hour or more. If you replace the drier, do not open the unit or remove the caps from the ports untill you are ready to install it. On an abvove average humid day, 15-30 minutes will destroy the dessicant in the drier, rendering it usless.

Do a search on this site, as A/C retrofit and alternative refrigerants have been discussed in depth.
I was told R12 could be installed by a liscensed HVAC technician, but that was a couple years ago... I'v done the retrofit for R-134A using the Walmart DIY kit, following the instructions and the car had a decent air conditioner afterwards, wasn't great tho.. Probably didn't do it all correctly but it worked
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