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-   -   say you have a THOUSAND horsepower engine..... (technical engine question inside) (http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/say-you-have-thousand-horsepower-engine-technical-engine-question-inside-109760.html)

lowROLLERchevy 02-23-2007 12:08 PM

say you have a THOUSAND horsepower engine..... (technical engine question inside)
 
ok, this has turned into a huge debate over on our local car forum ...

a local guy is a Viper specialist. he has poured a TON of money into building his car, and seams to be well on his way of offering a very good number of self designed performance parts

a while back, he built a short block for a customer, and he built it totaly to his own specs. hes staying mum on what he did, which is understandable is a niche market like the vipers are

recently, the engine was finaly dynoed in the customer car and compared to similar setups in other vipers, it made almost an extra 100hp

everyone is trying to cry B.S. on this, that its all dyno error or that the results were "fluffed" .... what do you engine experts think ? is a 9% improvement possible out of the short block alone ?

Quote:

This just in: A lower engine package I put together for a customer this fall based largely on what I built for myself just put down 950 RWHP with a STOCK Paxton kit, STOCK heads, STOCK Cam, STOCK fuel system w/paxton boosters, and a STOCK valvetrain. This is BY FAR the most ANYONE has gotten out of a Stock Engine/Stock Paxton/Built Bottom End configuration... Almost 100 RWHP more!

Apparently I did a pretty good job at building an efficient lower end? And the only reason it didnt make more was it ran out of fuel system!
Quote:

Peak Horsepower was ~950 @ 5800
Peak Torque was ~885 @ 4700
Peak Boost was teetering between 14 and 15 PSI before it was shutdown due to going lean


According to the tuner who did the tuning, it is by far the highest horsepower he has seen yet for the given mod set, and this car gained over 100 to the wheels since it was tuned last year on the stock bottom end. I put a few "tricks" into the bottom end of that car, and they paid off BIG TIME with regards to efficiency, ability to run extremely advanced timing (for an FI car at least), and resistance to detonation. He is trying to convince the owner into a fuel system and some minor headwork, hoping to see well over 1000 to the wheels on the next go around.
Quote:

Mass and friction have VERY little to do with any of the gains. If anything, the reduced friction *may* have countered the losses from increased mass...but thats about it.

mosstrooper 02-23-2007 12:17 PM

This Laddie should introduce himself the the Formula One Teams, they run about 1000HP too, but spend countless millions getting there.

Oh! and one thing more, they only last 2 races and then need a half milion rebuild.

engineczar 02-23-2007 12:29 PM

The definition of "Stock" is pretty loose. I build allot of NHRA/IHRA Stock eliminator engines. We use all "Stock" parts too.

Then again doesn't everyones "Stock" '70 340 Dusters run high 10's in the quarter?

I'm not saying he's BS'n everyone, maybe he has found some major design flaw that he's corrected. However 100hp with just a short block and no cam change is a head scratcher.

poncho62 02-23-2007 12:30 PM

100 HP more...................So, that means that a stock Viper v10 puts out 850 HP?





Starting to see the ......http://hotrodders.com/gallery/data/500/bsflag.gif

killerformula 02-23-2007 12:46 PM

Quote:

RWHP with a STOCK Paxton kit,
How is a "paxton kit" a stock item?

K

lowROLLERchevy 02-23-2007 01:01 PM

fine, let me narrow this down some

lets replace "stock" in some of those spots with "as commonly available from their aftermarket mfg's"

a "stock paxton supercharger" would threfore become "the paxton supercharger that you can buy from paxton, without any mods done to the kit"

Poncho, the extra 100hp is compared to similar builds, a viper that someone threw aftermarket pistons and rods in ... basicly situations where people ordered the "commonly available" upgrade parts, w/o realy looking into if they were "perfect" for the application.

mosstrooper- i doubt i have to explain how 1000hp out of a v10 viper and 1000hp out of an engine thats less then 1/2 the size are 2 VERY different things

and i decided to call Jim Oddy performace (yes that jim oddy)

Quote:

Originally Posted by crosspost from NYSpeed
THE MAGIC PHONE NUMBER KNOWS ALL !!!!

(716) 674 2500

the magic phone number says you can EASILY pick up 50-60hp by changing this and that around (bore, stroke, rod ratio, wrist pin height, ring pack height, compression ratio)

magic phone number ALSO says "but obviously if you make the engine MORE SUPERCHARGER FRIENDLY...."

he then summed up the conversation by saying "yea its possible" to the "extra 100hp" question

Im thinking that maybe, JUST maybe, Jim Oddy's crew is a reputable source of automotive knowledge ....[compared to the nyspeed "experts", not HR.com, so dont get offended guys, theres a reason i come hre w/ my questions :)]


seriousracer 02-23-2007 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by killerformula
How is a "paxton kit" a stock item?

K

i agree the paxton has several diffrent impellar designs that could cause this large of a discrpency.
when we raced a world challenge viper in 2000. with a a back door factory sponsership we laid 560 horse power to the rear wheels.. N/A! thru a restrictor.

Choctaw Bob 02-23-2007 01:19 PM

I know nothing about Viper engines. That said I have built numerous drag race engines, mostly Chevy and Ford, big block and small block.

A blue printed engine carefully put together with uniform clearances will make more power by reducing friction losses.
Carefully blue printed oil and water pumps can reduce the amount of horse power needed to run them. By carefully running as light weight valve train components as you can find and reducing the tension of valve springs as much as you can will also reduce frictional drag.
Careful polishing and shaping of crankshaft counterweights and the use of a windage tray will reduce drag on the crank.
The scientific use of coatings can also gain small amounts of horsepower.
This is just a small sample of the possibilities.
Each technique by itself won't gain much but done together as a package will easily gain 10% or even more.

RPM 02-23-2007 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Choctaw Bob
I know nothing about Viper engines. That said I have built numerous drag race engines, mostly Chevy and Ford, big block and small block.

A blue printed engine carefully put together with uniform clearances will make more power by reducing friction losses.
Carefully blue printed oil and water pumps can reduce the amount of horse power needed to run them. By carefully running as light weight valve train components as you can find and reducing the tension of valve springs as much as you can will also reduce frictional drag.
Careful polishing and shaping of crankshaft counterweights and the use of a windage tray will reduce drag on the crank.
The scientific use of coatings can also gain small amounts of horsepower.
This is just a small sample of the possibilities.
Each technique by itself won't gain much but done together as a package will easily gain 10% or even more.

That and degreeing in the cam to a better spec. A few degrees cam timing change will make a big difference. And he is not telling everything he did.

gilby246 02-23-2007 05:05 PM

This is very possible!! I know cause I did it and will tell you how....ready?? I used a tornado, K&N Air filter, fuel line magnet to atomize the fuel better and an electric bilge blower..ssshhh, donít tell anyone though.. I would prove it to you but I sold it cause it had to much power and scared me.. I was 16 at the time so go figure

CptKaos 02-23-2007 05:30 PM

would be easy as long as you didnt hafta run pump gas, you never mentioned the fuel being used.

Larry

lowROLLERchevy 02-23-2007 11:37 PM

93 octane in the 950hp viper, 93 octane in the vehical it was compared too

Choctaw Bob 02-23-2007 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RPM
That and degreeing in the cam to a better spec. A few degrees cam timing change will make a big difference. And he is not telling everything he did.

There are a lot of small tricks. Like Ron said, degreeing the cam. You can advance the cam and increase cylinder pressure. Retarding the cam will reduce the power off the line but make it run harder on the top end.
There are literally hundreds of "tricks" some good, some bad. The tricl is to know what one you let them do to yours:)

NDNslicks4me 02-24-2007 12:59 AM

I bet one thing was to polish the pistons and run more compression with the same boost compared to the other guys for starters, that could be an easy 50 HP right there in itself. But 100 HP is a lot....

Choctaw Bob 02-24-2007 08:26 AM

Top teams in all kinds of racing are always a lot faster than the slowest cars in their class. They can all buy the same components and do. The difference is all the knowledge developed and attention to detail. My engines have been tops for a number of years but it wasn't always that way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lowROLLERchevy
93 octane in the 950hp viper, 93 octane in the vehical it was compared too



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