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SBC head choices narrowed - need a push in A direction

6K views 41 replies 12 participants last post by  matthepet 
#1 ·
We are going to upgrade to aluminum heads this winter as the stock heads, that we put too much money into BTW, are going to the wayside. I've been told that original 3927185 were poor to begin with, so we're hoping for some REAL improvement.

Need some help getting pushed in a direction. After reading, researching and reading some more I've come up with 3 choices that I've talked myself into (subject to change;)). I'm trying to determine if the outcome will justify the $.

SBC 23 Degree Cylinder Heads
These are my preferred, but the most money.

SBC 185cc 2.02/1.60/64cc Straight Assmb - SBC Heads - Racing Parts
These are proven and reasonably priced.

Pro 1 SBC Heads
I've found a set of these as factory 2nd's for $500 and guaranteed (for whatever that means when dealing with someone you don't know half a country away) by a 'reputable' seller. They say the issues are only cosmetic and the selling machine shop has pressure tested and inspected machining specs.


The engine is a 331 (327 +.030) with TPI and Megasquirt. SCR 9.6-9.8 and DCR 8.2 to 8.4 depending on cam timing. Hydraulic FT mild, forged SRP pistons, Crower rods, stock crank - rotating assembly balanced. I am currently decking the block to resolve a crappy situation/previous mistake to get quench to .037 -.040. It will eventually get a low boost turbo setup - 4-8 psi max after it is together and dyno'ed.

I can and will do some mild porting, bowl blending, smoothing and gasket matching. I'm pretty sure that 180 to 185cc intake runners are more than adequate for a sub 6200 rpm build, but correct me if I'm wrong.

Almost forgot to mention, no Chinesium Assault, ProComp, etc.. I'm cheap, but compassionate when I see the local landscaper with former machinists and engineers working for him; I don't guess as to how he found these overqualified guys.

Thanks in advance - Jim
 
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#3 ·
Well, i used both the Profiler 195's and patriot 195's..(now called promaxxx)
The motor with the promax heads had a lot more cam and much better exhaust. but all else the same, 350, rpm intake, 10.1, 750dp. Was backed by a TH350, 2800 stall, 4.11 gear. Worked really well.
Second car had a weeny cam, 268H, shorty headers, single 3" to the rear, 700R4, 3.42 gear....profiler heads
Cars were within 200# of each other.
Second car was faster.... gtech dashboard dyno deal, times not relivmt as it always showed a hell of a lot faster then was realistic but the pro filer headed car was always at least 3ths faster. And it felt faster by a decent amount.
The promax heads were nice, no complaints at all, worked very well for the money and at the time nobody had heard squat from Pro filer. Given the same choice today, being only a couple hundred bucks apart... the Profiler gets the nod every time.
 
#4 ·
Just my .02 worth. Unless you are buying Edelbrock, Brodix, AFR or similar quality heads, I would buy any of the ones you posted in bare form and install good valves, springs & retainers. Those cheaper heads are cheaper for a reason and the quality of the valves they use in them are some of the reason.
 
#5 ·
Amd yep, Vinnie is on the money, the 180's will be too small on a forced induction application. For a TPI 327 on 8# I bet the profiler 195's would be a perfect choice. 200+ would fit the bill if you were upping the boost considerably but sub 10# the 195's will be all the head you need.
 
#9 ·
AFR has enjoyed a very good reputation for some time now. The CnC process being so popular now almost all quality casting can be nicely ported for a moderate amount of money. I use Dart heads and they came CnC machined,then they were touched up a little past that.
we are talking a 327 that would work great with anyones heads that flow close to 300 cfm and then add a turbo for what could be a mild 700 hp engine
 
#10 ·
Thanks for the input guys. How did you figure the intake runner was too small? I remember seeing someone post a calculator to determine intake port size, but I couldn't locate it. I have a lot of concern about having too large of a runner and it causing issues being a little bit doggy for the 1st 2-3000 rpm's. The motor has always performed well on the bottom end because of the TPI, I assumed, even with the poor heads and quench; I really want that to improve as well as the top end. I guess what I'm saying is I'm in with a 195cc intake runner if it is not going to cause an issue below 3000 rpms. What do you think?

I'm not debating or attempting to start a debate about the quality or value of the heads I listed as compared to Brodix, AFR, RHS, etc.. I'm working on a budget that doesn't include those. For that matter my budget doesn't include provisions to run 7500+ rpm or a roller cam at this moment either.

For my application, would you still recommend buying bare and installing better valves? If I buy the Promaxx or Profiler, then I was intending to buy them assembled because they are cheaper and I assumed their valves & springs are decent. I figured if they were poor, then I'd be seeing some comments on the web and this forum indicating as such. If I buy an assembled head then I intend to check the springs to what my cam manufacturer recommends for springs and change if needed. I've been running Z28 springs with no issues on the stock heads.

Should I be able to use 1205 intake gasket with the larger runner?
 
#11 ·
A 185cc runner is not too small at all, its actually just about perfect for what you intend (depending on how the head was laid out), anyone who thinks otherwise, apparently doesn't know how to size a head. I'd go with the Profiler head and upgrade your TPI runners if you haven't already. You also don't need 300cfm, not sure why that was thrown out there.

Also, there's nothing wrong with running assembled head PROVIDED the springs used are what is required for your cam. You need to check on the Profiler spring specs and what the cam manufacturer recommends.
 
#12 ·
195cc, 64cc head. Put quality valves in it and make damn sure rocker arm geometry is correct. Any one of the aluminum heads out there you have listed will suffice. Keep in mind "suffice" is the key word here. I have run AFR, Dart, Profiler, Procomp..never had a problem with any of them as long as the valves were of good quality, the castings were machined correct, springs set to cam needs AND, again, rocker geometry correct. I usually lean to the AFR, DART for my serious builds. The rest get a compromise based first on the money then the justification of a choice for cyl heads. It is the usual choice being made based upon application, money and what I call the give a ***** factor.
 
#13 ·
A moderate volume port head without any exhaust cross over provisions is what you need with a port volume of 170 to 190 cc. This is harder to achieve than it looks as many 190's don't flow all that well till the valve is considerably more than a half inch off the seat while some smaller port heads like AFR's bring an exhaust crossover port which is unneeded in your application and messes up the exhaust port surface where they originate. Another great choice is the TFS 175 or 195 which doesn't have an exhaust crossover and flows very well for their port sizes.

I recommend buying the head bare, chosing your valves separatly but more importantly using the valve train parts recommended by the cam manufacturer rather than assuming or guessing that the head manufacturer's springs are compatible with the selected cam. There's more to this than just spring pressures.

Bogie
 
#17 · (Edited)
I recommend buying the head bare, chosing your valves separatly but more importantly using the valve train parts recommended by the cam manufacturer rather than assuming or guessing that the head manufacturer's springs are compatible with the selected cam. There's more to this than just spring pressures.

Bogie
I've mentioned previously that it seems unlikely to me that the valves that Profiler uses would be of suspect quality. Have you seen or heard of issues with the valve quality? Do you think I could get a much better valve that is worth the additional money? Can you give me some examples? I did notice that Profiler's bare vs. assembled price is low which implies one of two things to me, either the valves and sprins are of low quality or they are buying them by the boat load and getting a great price from their supplier - hopefully the latter.

Your comment about springs I agree with. The only issue I have is that I'm using a larger rocker ratio which is putting the lift into a different range. Comp recommends the 981-16 or the 26981-16 beehive, but because the lift is more than intended due to the rockers I'm at a loss for the proper spring. As AP advised, I intend to contact both the head manufacturer and Comp (since that is the cam I have) for a little more guidance. Personally, I wish I had the jing for a roller, but it isn't in the cards presently.

Thanks greatly for your input.
 
#14 ·
So lot of opinions and not a solid answer Jim, sorry, hopefully Chad will chime in shortly with an answer to a familiar question. I know he posted a thread pertaining to head size selection that's pretty interesting but I'm not sure how boost will effect the chart
Either way you may be limited using the stock TPI base regardless.
 
#15 ·
I assumed I would receive responses that varied, but there a lot of similarities also, depending on how I look at it. I do realize that the TPI base is the limiting factor, hence my concern for too large of an intake runner. I still have a alot of material that I can remove from the base as I only 'smoothed' it when I originally installed it. But I would guess that I'm not going to get more than another 5-10cc if I went as far as I dared.

I have read Chad's thread and think I have a better understanding of what I need based on his 'work/spreadsheet'. But I don't want to kid anyone, I'm not able to attain the inputs in his sheet without a lot of guessing which will skew the results beyond useable as far as I'm concerned.

I've been watching Pebble Hill's thread also and gathering as much info as I can from that.

I'm still not sure which head to get, but please keep in mind - THIS WILL BE A STREET DRIVEN ENGINE AND EXPECTATION AND PREFERENCE IS TO MAKE LOTS POWER BY 6K. (CAPS are not me yelling, just emphasizing.) FWIW,with the crappy heads, poor quench and TPI this made a hp/cube and in a 2600lb car ran 8.5 in the 1/8 at 90mph through the traps. ANd on a chassis dyno it made a fair amount more torque than HP (25-28, I'd have to check the last slip.)
 
#18 ·
They'll likely recommend the same beehive spring.

You don't need all the parameters chad uses, mostly because you're not going to custom port a head. You need the 185cc head range you started with and profiler is a good reputable brand. Your decision is pretty clear if you wipe away all the BS. Btw, your top and base of your intake can be ported, the runners need to be replaced for max power though. With a properly sized turbo your combo could easily make 600+hp on race fuel or e85. But you need to go one step at a time.
 
#22 ·
I have ported the heck out of the top where the tb mounts. Basically, if I open the throttle plates there is virtually no upper plenum in site. It was unbelievable how much was there when I started - I think it was a pretty poor GM design.

Are you talking about using SLP runners? I've read mixed reviews on them.

I intended to go one step at a time. As I mentioned previously, I wanted to get it running and dyno'ed to see what it will do NA, but mostly to get the timing and fuel right before putting the turbo on. We have everything for the turbo portion except the injectors, oil and fuel lines. I am also going to add a knock sensor to the MS to be on the safe side.

600HP, that would be great, except then I'll need another trans. 450-525 is the goal and be streetable.

Thanks.
 
#26 ·
The majority of the valvetrain parts from Pro-Filer come from PBM. Which most of it is USA made except for the springs and valves. The valves are made by Eaton.

Yes, they buy a boat load at a time.

They supply Jeg's, PBM, and EPW with heads. They also do house branded cores for many engine builders and crate builders.

A short list of what HTC (High Tech Casting) casts for larger companies:

Chrysler Corp (NHRA Hemi, RP9 and all other performance heads)
World Products (BBC, LSX, SBF)
Pro-Filer Performance
Canfield Cylinder Heads (no longer produced)
Chapman Racing
Roush Racing
Eaton Aerospace
Ford Motor Sports

So when people try to say that the quality is suspect, I laugh. When people say that the company isn't very popular, I laugh...
 
#28 ·
Eaton manufactures more than 300 million valves per year worldwide. Additionally, the company produces valve actuation components like roller rocker arms, hydraulic valve lash adjusters and variable valvetrains making Eaton the only supplier offering the complete valvetrain system. Its facilities in Europe as well as North America, South America, India and Asia Pacific regions supply more than 140 automotive and heavy duty engine manufacturers globally. Eaton’s Vehicle Group operates European valve and valvetrain production facilities in Nordhausen, Germany, in Bielsko-Biala, Poland as well as in Bosconero and Monfalcone, Italy. Additionally, the research and development center for valves and valvetrains is located in Turin, Italy, and Rastatt, Germany.
 
#30 ·
my top choice for heads are AFR and Dart as well just because I know they work on stuff we have had in the past. I am building a motor and am really interested in the afr heads because of there cnc factor. profiler heads will run you about $1100. you can get 180 or 195 cnc afr heads for $1573 or $1517 on summit. I would personally save the 400 more and get the afrs. I just need to figure out what cubic inch I am going to use then I will buy the afr heads. if you cant go afr id go pro-filer hands down. they make a good head.
 
#33 ·
The thing about a 195cc Pro-Filer is you have room to grow. I use the same casting for my 205cc, 227cc, 250cc, and 265cc CNC offerings.

Dart is a great core. I don't work on AFR's anymore.
So are you implying that the 185 could have potential to be limiting if I upgraded to a larger cam or more boost? Even with the TPI? What difference would I see in street manners between 185 & 195? If the answer is little to none, then you made up my mind.

Looking at your pictures, it's pretty obvious that the lower section of the guide is gone. How does that affect longevity, i.e. 20-25K miles of driving. I'm going to show off my lack of experience, but I've never seen anyone take it off. I've only ported a couple of set of heads and have never dared to take more than 1/8" or so off the bottom of the guide.

Regarding the valves, I'm happy with Eaton valves and appreciate you passing along your knowledge of the heads. Obviously, I haven't called Profiler yet, but I was concerned, not knowing them, that they would tell me what I want to hear.

I assume from your comment about AFR that there is probably more to the story. I do understand the quality of their heads and what can be accomplished with them, but the best engine builder I know has made a similar comment to me regarding them. I was surprised then and also by your comment. Personally, I don't care about a name, I'm more results oriented and have to keep track of my budget. Hence, find something that will meet both.

Thanks greatly for the responses.
 
#37 ·
I finally tracked down Profiler. I was told that they aren't sure of the brand of the valves and springs. ????? I advised that I was told the valves were Eaton valves by on of his customers, but the person I spoke to, who said he was the owner, would neither confirm nor deny it. It was a strange conversation. I asked his thoughts about using one of his assembled heads for a low boost setup and he said 'it should be fine to 12-14 psi with the current valve and spring.' He did say that his pricing is based on bulk purchasing and that he has had less than a handful of warranties with these components. And he did mention that there is going to be a a price increase at the end of the year of approx $100. I forgot to ask if that was per set or per head - duh! I hung up with a puzzled look on my face because of the lack of information about the valves and springs. Seemed like a decent guy.

After I hung up I thought that maybe he didn't want to admit that some of the parts may be from offshore, albeit off the east coast not the west coast, but perhaps he didn't want to admit the 'made in America' heads have components on the assembled version that don't fit that bill.

Thought I'd pass it along - Jim
 
#39 ·
Its a little funny, I used 2 sets of their heads, both performed excellent, haven't had any issues and one set has a bunch of street miles and lots of nitrous use in the last 2 years with no issues (guy bought the car off me and added more gear, converter and a plate)
That being said I had some shipping issues with the first set, and a couple questions about springs on the second set and every time I spoke with either guy there (Dave or Mike IIRC) it was usually a little confusing and sometimes even painfully lol. They delivered the product as described, and other then shipping time I didn't have any complaints, but before I bought the first set it was actually Chad that answered a couple questions and led me to go with Profiler. Felt a little foolish later realizing that he uses their castings but had no benifit from me buying directly from them lol.....
 
#41 ·
Yah Jim, ap is right in that your application isn't going to stress components and your not going to have an issue regardless of what route you take. That being said, as 64SS said above, I would shoot Chad a PM and see what a set of his econo port castings would cost you, you may be surprised at the cost and as you know from all the research and reading, your going to be very happy... and this gives you room to grow down the road, more cubes, HSR, more cam, boost.(you know about addiction to power lol).. the heads will already be on and ready to roll...
 
#42 ·
Increasing your engine's efficiency is a major way to improve performance and horsepower; the addition of performance-oriented aftermarket heads can greatly improve your engine's output by enhancing airflow and combustion efficiency. There was a time when your only choice for high-performance heads was modified factory castings, but today there's a broad variety of off-the-shelf heads, in both iron and aluminum, that can for outpace even professionally enhanced old stock castings.
 
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