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Old 07-23-2004, 04:22 AM
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SBC Heads -= AFR - Trickflow - Dart - Brodix =-

Heya Boys,
I had to put the short block in a storage bag for a bit while I have been doing some suspension work on the '63 Chevy II SS. I got the mini-tubs made up, springs moved inboard and mounted to the subframe connectors and rear spring hangers. New dropped crossmember in the rear and slide a link setup on a narrowed 9" Ford. Well, I ended up with 275/60R15's in the rear and 195/60R15's in the front, it should look pretty hot when finished up.
Yeah, yeah... back to the short block. It's time for some heads soon. I want all your honest opinions. I was originally looking into the Dart Pro 1's and Brodix Track 1's, but I decided to look things over a bit closer, because this is a very expensive decision. After looking over the flow rates, the AFR's 210cc's really caught my eye, as well as the TFS's R-Series 215cc heads. These both have better flow rates than both of the aforementioned sets. The Dart and Brodix heads flow fairly well at high lifts, correct me if I am wrong, but we would rather see higher flow rates at all lift heights, correct? If you think of the basic principle of the valve moving up and down to its peak, you are only at the peak for one instant, but you spend the majority of the time moving to and from the peak (pulling in air the entire time). Would it make sense to want a set of heads that flowed well at a broader range, say from .300" - .650", instead of only at peak lift (.650")? If so, the AFR's would move to the top of my list.
What do you all think of the AFR 210's and TFS 215's? I know some of you will tell me that the AFR's are pre-ported, but it doesn't matter much. I am sure you could do better buying a set of XXX heads and having them ported, but I don't want to go that route. If I am going to spend that kind of money, I want the best bang for my buck right out of the box. Will the smaller runner size also help the mighty mouse (383) not get overwhelmed with the volume or air (Brodix Track 1's are getting up to 220cc runners)? I don't want to get too large of runners for the engine and have it fall on its face!
The TFS heads are offered with Chromo or Titanium retainers. What is the difference between the two, beside the $50 price tag? Will the Chromo caps fold up with a high seat pressure or something? Will they distort and become sloppy at the top of the spring? I don't know when the titanium upgrade would be needed, but I would rather save the money if I have no need for them. Please help me make a final decision. (I'll include a flow chart I just finished with). Thanks Everyone! Regards, Rick

Head Flow Data

Setup:
383 4-Bolt, 11.5:1 Comp (67cc Heads)(.020 in the hole - .015 gaskets)
4340 Eagle Bottom End - 6" Rods
JE SRP Pistons - Flat Tops (-5cc)
ARP Fasteners
67cc Aluminum Heads (AFR or TFS) - Don't have yet (Need your help!)
Single Plane Intake (AFR) - Don't have yet (Need your help!)
BG 750 Race Demon (Drag Race)
K&N XStream 14"x4" Filter
Comp Cams 304HR Cam, 244/244, .640/.640 (1.6 Rockers)
MSD Mech. Advance Distributor (HVC Ignition & HVC Coil)
CSI Electric Pump, March Serp Pulley Kit
Triple Electric Fans (One Pusher & Two Pullers) on C&R Winston Closed Radiator - Thermostat Filler w/Racing Cap
Hooker 1 3/4" Primaries into dual 3" Flow Delta 40's Balance Pipe
TH400 Manual Vavle Body w/3500 Converter
4.11 Richmond Gears, 4-Pinion Trac-Lok, 31-Spline Axles
275/60R15's & 195/60R15's wrapped in BFG's
Mono Leafs, CE Slide-A-Link bars, shocks w/coil-over helper springs, polyurethane bushings
(2800-3000 lbs w/driver)

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Old 07-23-2004, 07:56 AM
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Nice project, got any pictures to show the rest of the class? Looks like you've got a pretty well thought out setup.

As for the heads, it's been beaten to death already.

http://hotrodders.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6775

Larry
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Old 07-23-2004, 08:38 AM
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It's unfair to compare a set of CNC'd heads (AFR) to a set of non CNC'd heads. Not knowing what rpm you want to achieve, I would suggest a 200 cc head for up to 6500 rpm. A 210 to 220 for a 7500 rpm engine. Another head to look at is the Canfield. It's out of the box numbers are very good for a Non CNC'd head.

Chris
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Old 07-23-2004, 08:39 AM
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Brodix or Dart,

Bench flow and make good power are often two diffrent things.

Brodix and dart both a more homenguos mixture spread with less fall out than AFR.

'I would use the GM SB2 intake. The part number for the GM plugs is 12480171 and you will need two kits since there are only 4 plugs to a kit.

Last edited by johnsongrass1; 07-23-2004 at 01:17 PM.
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Old 07-23-2004, 06:53 PM
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Thanks for the replies.
Larry- I have posted some new pictures to my gallery last night. There isnít any of the entire car, but it's not much to look at yet anyhow. The engine compartment is all cleaned up and ready for paint. I'll get more pics posted as I move along.
I also had looked over that post before I put mine up. I really wanted help with my individual setup. I thought all you builders and racers might be able to help me.

Chris- I am more looking to get up to the 7500 RPM range. I though the cam and carb I have would like to see at least the 210cc runners, but if not, let me know what would work better.
I have heard this statement over and over again and I don't feel that it is entirely true; "It's unfair to compare a set of CNC'd heads (AFR) to a set of non CNC'd heads". I feel that if AFR is going to offer a CNC ported head at the same cost of a full line of non CNC'd heads (Brodix, Dart, Canfield, Edelbrock, TFS, World); they have every right to be compared as apples to apples. I am not going to compare a set of AFRs at ~$1400 to a set of Dart or Brodix CNC'd heads at ~$2400. This would not make sense to me. Sure, they both might be equal in the fact that they are now both CNC ported, but thereís now a $1000 difference in price. I am trying to compare all of the heads at approximately the $1400 range. If AFR is going to offer an outstanding flowing head at this cost, I don't care how they get the figures, as long as they are legit. In fact, I feel that it is great that they can do this work and offer it at a good price. If you move up from the normal 70% CNC'd AFRs to the 100% fully ported AFRs, they still might out flow the competition. I am not telling you that you are wrong in any way, but I still feel that it is completely fair to judge them in the same league as the competition because they are in the same price range. If you just look at the head design, flow numbers, and price, what is the best in your book? If you don't feel that it is fair to compare them, why not? I don't want to make you angry; I would just like to know why.
Really, to be honest, I don't know what the AFRs cost. If they are much more expensive than the competition, I could understand why you would not like to compare them against each other. I can see the catalog prices for the rest of the heads, but I don't know what the AFRs cost. Do any of you sell these heads? What would a fully assembled set cost?
Here are some catalog prices to make this an equal comparison:
Edelbrock Victor Jr. - (64cc chambers) $1359.00
Brodix Track 1's - (67cc chambers) $1329.00
Dart Pro 1's w/215 runners- (64cc chambers) $1199.90
Trickflow R-Series (67cc chambers) $1345.95
AFRs w/210 runners (67cc chambers) $????.??

Johnson- I know that you are probably a racer and do this a living, or at least a very involved hobby, but what is the difference between the flow results and the power the head makes? Aren't they directly related to one another? If not what is the difference? Are you saying that the runner design, exhaust ports, or chamber style will affect the head in a way that the Brodix or Dart will perform better than the AFRs, TFS, and Edelbrocks, even with the lower flow numbers? The A/F ratio is better in these heads? How do you know this, and at what state is it better? When entering the chamber, or when it is compressed? I don't know what you mean when you say "Fall out"; can you tell me what this is?

Thanks guys! I know some of you might be loyal to a certain brand, or hate another for one reason or another, but if all the heads are seemingly in an equal class, what it the best bang for the buck? What will give the absolute best power (We can already see which flow the best, and this is what I thought was the most important fact when trying to find the best head)?
Hey Machine shop tom, Killer, Cstraub, Badknuckles, Jmark, 87442lover, Bobcrman, Troy-Curt, Camaroman7d, Bullheimer, Doublevision, & Lluciano77... What do all of you think about the flow rates at the lower lifts? Do you feel that it is important to have a high flow throughout the entire lift, or only at the peak? I should have a lift of .600" w/1.5 rockers or .640" w/1.6 rockers. All of these heads seem to flow pretty well at this left, but do I want to look at the lower lift flow rate too? What about the exhaust flow rates, they are just as important, correct? Do any of you feel that one of these heads has a superior chamber design than the others? If any of you have anything to add, please lay it on me, I want to learn all I can. I'll be sure to pass it all on to the youngsters when I am older too, just as all of you help so much! (Sorry for the long post)
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Old 07-23-2004, 09:04 PM
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If you want to spin it that hard I don't recommend that hyd roller cam. It can be made to work with a rev kit like AFR's, some of Comps new beehive style valvesprings and a heap of lightweight parts. Just seems like a lot of money to spend for not much of a gain.

If I were rich enough to build an engine such as yours I'd like to use raised runner heads. AFR and Dart both make very good 215cc versions. Darts are a bit higher and not cnc ported but the flow is comparable.

That's just me though.

Larry
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Old 07-23-2004, 09:36 PM
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Hi Larry-
I was really hoping to see RPMs up to about 7000-7500. I know the hyd roller will not like those high RPMs much, but I don't have the space to be adjusting the valve train once the car is moved to LA. I might try a solid or mechanical roller some time in the future, but now is not the right time for me. Do the Rev-Kits work with the hyd lifters that use the link bars? Where do the plates go that hold the lifter springs?
I cannot use the raised runner heads because they require offset lifters and offset shaft-mounted rocker arms. I already have the lifters for the car and if I was going to go this route, I would have gone with 18* heads. They would probably need a special intake manifold too, and I have no idea what they cost, but it's probably more than what I was looking to spend. Larry, what do you think would be best out of the standard 23* heads? Thanks, Rick
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Old 07-23-2004, 10:26 PM
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Quote:
Johnson- I know that you are probably a racer and do this a living, or at least a very involved hobby, but what is the difference between the flow results and the power the head makes? Aren't they directly related to one another? If not what is the difference? Are you saying that the runner design, exhaust ports, or chamber style will affect the head in a way that the Brodix or Dart will perform better than the AFRs, TFS, and Edelbrocks, even with the lower flow numbers? The A/F ratio is better in these heads? How do you know this, and at what state is it better? When entering the chamber, or when it is compressed? I don't know what you mean when you say "Fall out"; can you tell me what this is?
I am a Dirt Racer racing Super Lates for a team while trying to start my own business.

Flow numbers aren't all what they claimed to be in some circumstances. It's to easy for a manufacturer to inflate flow numbers by adjusting the bench. To many people look at flow numbers to mean more power when in reality fuel mixture properties make power. A large 250cc port will allow for more air but what that does to fuel is another. Fuel and air don't really like each other much, when given a chance they will separate and go their separate ways. Also known as fallout, this mixture problem becomes worse when the air is forced to travel around sharp corners and the fuels centrifugal force will separate the two. Head manufactures don't often advertise wet flow figures so the average gear-head can get a clue to their marketing advantage.

Booster signal, intake design, port shape, (and to a lessor degree port size) valve angle and head shape, seat shape and chamber shape, as well as piston crown shape, and compression ratio all play a part in maintaining a fuel droplet size for volumetric efficiency.
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Old 07-24-2004, 08:45 AM
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What would be the best intake to use with the dart pro1 heads. Preformer RPM or a Victor jr? Is there a port size I should try to stick to?? I read somewhere in this forum that anything larger than 180cc needed a larger port intake.
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Old 07-24-2004, 10:28 AM
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Look for the heads with the highest flow numbers with the smallest ports. These will provide the highest port velocity which will fill the cylinders best.

Whatever heads you get, take them to a good machinist and have them checked out. Chances are they need a valve job and decking, maybe more.

tom
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Old 07-24-2004, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Delirious2000
Hi Larry-
I was really hoping to see RPMs up to about 7000-7500. I know the hyd roller will not like those high RPMs much, but I don't have the space to be adjusting the valve train once the car is moved to LA. I might try a solid or mechanical roller some time in the future, but now is not the right time for me. Do the Rev-Kits work with the hyd lifters that use the link bars? Where do the plates go that hold the lifter springs?
I cannot use the raised runner heads because they require offset lifters and offset shaft-mounted rocker arms. I already have the lifters for the car and if I was going to go this route, I would have gone with 18* heads. They would probably need a special intake manifold too, and I have no idea what they cost, but it's probably more than what I was looking to spend. Larry, what do you think would be best out of the standard 23* heads? Thanks, Rick
Right now either Dart or Canfield 210-215cc, the lead time for AFR's is still too far out for me. All the press AFR got in the magazines has got them busy. If you have the patience then go for it. I won't make any specific recommendations because the difference in power between the three will likely be too small to measure on the seat 'o the pants dyno.

AFR's hydra rev kits only work with factory style lifters.

Larry
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Old 07-27-2004, 01:25 AM
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Thanks Guys...

Johnson- I pulled most all of the flow numbers from the CHP article, with the exception of the TFS heads. These were independently flowed, so I am sure there is no tricky business goin' on here. They did flow on set of TFS twisted wedge heads and I checked them against the flow number on the trickflow site, they matched up; I thought it would be safe to pull the numbers from their site for the R-Series as well.
I do understand when you say that an increase in runner size will allow more air into the cylinders, but all of these heads have between 210-220cc runners. They also have the same valve size. The smaller runner sizes are also flowing the most air, so they most have well designed runners. If they flow better with the smaller runners, does this mean they have a cleaner passage way to the cylinders, which will keep a better atomization of the fuel? You mention that the fuel atomization is very important and if you have sharp curves and such it will sling-shot the fuel into the falls and break up the mixture. Do you think that with higher dry flow rates you can make a bet that they would also have a higher wet flow rate? Thanks Johnson!
Tom- You mention the smallest runners and highest flow rates will be the best combination. If the velocity of the A/F mixture is increase, can you get over 100% of the cylinder volume filled? In other words, with the high velocity of the mixture can you actually create a vacuum that will pressurize the cylinders? Or, when you say an increased velocity, does this just mean that you can get the air moving into the cylinders faster and have a better chance of filling them 100% full (Do they ever get 100% full - Standard atmospheric pressure)? I don't even know if I am asking any of this right, but I am just trying to understand how the increase velocity will help fill the cylinders better. We know they have a set volume, but I don't know how much air will fit into the cylinders, or if a velocity change will increase or decrease this amount (assuming that all variables are kept constant; the air temperature (density) and altitude, etc.). Help me understand this a bit better if you can...
Larry- Thanks for your recommendations. I was still looking at the Darts, but I don't know about their exhaust flow rates. They are the very worst out of the whole set. I know the intake flow is more important, but they just don't look like they have a good design on the exhaust (bad chamber design, bad exhaust valve placement, bad runner design). I don't know how important the exhaust flow is compared to the intake. Do you know? It must not be as critical because the super heated gases are less dense and should exit quicker. You agree, or is this wrong?
I certainly have enough time to wait for the AFRs. I would love to have this thing fired up tomorrow, but I am trying to be patient and do everything at a slower pace so I get it all right the first time, well, that and the whole money thing.
I am going to call AFR and check with them about the upper end package (Heads, Intake, Valve Covers...with maybe the gasket sets and such. I don't know if they have any kits or not).

Regards- Rick
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Old 07-27-2004, 07:03 AM
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Rick,
Your cam won't support that kind of rpm for 383 CID. For that large of a sbc to make power cam is going to have to be in the high 260 duration range at .050" and lift somewhere around .700 gross. Then the fact it is a hyd roller. Due to the shear weight of the lifter and the limits of spring pressure that can be used most hyd rollers are limited to around 6500 rpm. AFR's hydro rev kit works and would add about 300 rpm.

Tom is right if you buy a package complete head, I would have a shop dissassemble and check everything. . . just a good practice. Don't over look iron, it is still the best bang for the buck and remember you loose a full point of compression with aluminum due to its thermal properties.

Chris
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Old 07-27-2004, 08:47 AM
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The JE forged piston you already have in the short block are heavy. 7500 RPM is really taxing the rods. I suggest you aim more for 7000 with good crank to keep piston speed down to 4500 FPS. The engine will last longer. With that out of the way, if the cam grind you mentioned earlier 7000 is doable but I agree with Chris about running out of air around there. I think 680 lift and 260@.050 if the centerline is near 106 or less. I have never , ever saw a gain with rev kit's. As far as I see, They just allow more stuff to break in a motor and go through the bearings. Then you would need to leave the line at 4500 and shift at 7000 to run low 12.s with decent traction and 3000 pounds. Proaction also makes a really good head but expensive($2500). As far as head flow versus wet flow than What I am saying is you need to do careful research to what head you buy. Dart, Brodix, Proaction, TFS, Pro-Topline, Canfield, and many others all make great power. Just don't get caught up in Ad Marketing and buy something "cause that guy's got it". Mags like Carcraft get free part's for the mag by advertising the part thy are installing. Have you ever noticed they seldom ever say anything bad about the part in question, and when the editor does, there's always a quick fix by buying another part. Then that company get's a plug in it as well. Or they blame it on simatics,

"Well this cam just isn't big enough to support the power these heads are capable of making"

or

"We goofed and brought the wrong(insert part here) and wern't able to really run it up to full speed! but we know it's capable..."

You get the idea.

They even incorporate the humor of Gearheadrom antics into it.

What ever head you choose, I can tell will be a well researched and well thought decision I'm sure you will be happy with.
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Old 08-04-2004, 07:56 AM
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hedas and cam suggestions

I would like to try and help on the head and cam subject . If you have a high velocity head that flow good you can use less cam timing because the head is doing the work .For instance look at the Z06 corvette that makes 450hp has a cam with 220 duration @ .050 and spins 6000+ .I built a 383 similar to yours for a customer last month and we used a cam that was a street roller solid 252/260 @ .050 and .650 lift 109 seperation angle and ground 4 degrees advance for a 104.5 installed centerline.Wioth a set of dart 230 pro ones this 383 sbc made 602hp@7200 we spun it as high as 7500 and it lost 3hp.So myadvice is buy the smallest cam you can and just worry about buying the heads you can afford and dont be afraid of solid street roller cams the ramp speeds are different than a solid rac roller cam so adjustments are not so often.
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