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sbc inneed of medical attention 911

25K views 214 replies 25 participants last post by  cobalt327 
#1 ·
Hello all. Thanks for yalls time.
Sorry for any bad spelling and or misprints - its late here and im tired + dealing with my 14mth old son.
Iv got a 66 c10 with a sbc 400.
First of let me say Im not trying to half az this or cheap out on this but money is so tight right now....

To make a long story short - When I got the truck I was told it had a oil change and was pretty much ready to go expt for wiring issues.
After addressing the wiring issues I checked the oil (Overfilled but thought nothing of it because the oil was clear as could be)

I fired her up and she had a slight miss. After a few adjustment I could not clear up the miss. I checked the oil and it looked milkish
So I ran compression checks. cylinders 3 and 5 had 75ish psi and the rest all had a even 125.
I pulled the head with the low compression issues - ran it to the shop and had it checked. (Woulden u know - cracked head)
The shop built me a new head for 200$ with all new parts. Durning the time waiting for the head *I dropped the pan to installed a new high volume oil pump* This is when I found antifreeze in the oil.

(I talked with the shop and they said I should go ahead and drop on the new head on and see how the oil pressure does) Since I never heard the engine knock or such.


Got the head home re-installed.
Fired her up and had 50ish psi on cold start- (I have a cheap after market gauge) after running 10 mins I had no oil pressure- I went ahead and changed the oil thinking maybe it had picked up some of the bad old oil/antifreeze mixture.

I used 10/30 the first time this time I used 10/40.

This time I had 40ish at start up and lost oil pressure within 5mins. (This maybe because the first time I started the truck the oil had been in it over night and its been cold here) The oil I put in the 2nd time had been in the house.

I pulled the valve cover to see how well the top end was oiling - this is when i noticed cylender 7 rockarm wasn't moving as much. I checked and recheck my rocker adjustments and the push rod.

Soo now after all this I have a flat cam.

The shop is saying I probably killed a cam bearing when the cam went flat.

Since Iv had all these issues. Im pulling the motor.
I getting a new cam and lifters from summit - Im getting new cam bearings. right around 150ish.
Then Im having the crank turned with new bearings for 150.

Im planing on installing everything myself. - New cam bearings and stuff....
Im having alote of ppl tell me I dont need to vat the engine block -

Some are saying I just need to keep an eye on the oil and change it 3 or 4 times every 200 miles or so for a bit.

Some are saying i could take the engine all the way down and remove all the
plugs and wash the block at a car wash then spray the block like crazy with wd40.

I read a forum wear someone had the same issues. There was people saying vat and others saying its not needed. Some wear even saying what metal was in the engine from the bad cam probably got washed out by the anti freeze.

The shop Im using is wanting 200$ just to vat + 50$ for all new parts.

Then 150 on the crank and 150 in the cam.

I just dont have that kinda money.

I can probably swing the 300 and a little extra for gaskets/oil pump and stuff but thats about it....

Can I get away with not vatting the engine?



When I dropped the pan there was no - metal looking stuff nor was there any on the magnet on the drain plug. There was none in the oil I just changed after the 10/15min run and none in the oil filter.

Please any advice?
 
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#2 ·
Since you are tearing the motor down completely, I would clean it. Not saying to pay your shop to vat it but at least take it to a car wash and pressure wash it. Take it back home and blow out all passages with an air compressor until completely dry then lightly oil the cylinder and lifter bores. Spray the cam and main journals and anything else you are concerned about rusting with WD40 or similar.

Make sure you follow the correct cam breakin procedure and use a zinc oil additive.
 
#3 ·
Can I get away with not vatting the engine?

When I dropped the pan there was no - metal looking stuff nor was there any on the magnet on the drain plug. There was none in the oil I just changed after the 10/15min run and none in the oil filter.

Please any advice?
No need for the shop to clean the engine, but the engine should be cleaned. You can do this yourself. An inexpensive set of brushes, and using a power washer/car wash/garden hose w/a spray nozzle you can soap it up using liquid dish soap and clean hell out of it. The condition of the crank, bearings and oil pump gears will be a factor as to how much trash got circulated.

Remove the cam bearings before cleaning. Get the main oil passages that run front to back. If only one lobe and lifter was bad, the filter will have caught the majority of the particles. Where the real damage gets done is when the oil filter mount bypass valve is not plugged, it will allow the oil to circulate bypassing the filter- which is stopped up w/the debris from the failed cam and lifters.

Iron rusts before your eyes after being degreased and wet w/water, so use a rust preventative on it asap.

Clean the lifter bores w/a shotgun bristle brush and acetone to rid them of any shellac that has built up- the lifters have to rotate as soon as the engine starts and if the bores are built up w/deposits, the lifters can be too tight. There's almost never a need to hone the lifter bores, but do inspect them closely for burrs, etc., including inside the bores where the oil passage intersects.

Clean the oil pan up under the tray- there will be stuff there from day one. If I was going to have anything cleaned by the shop, it would be the pan.

A couple pages that may be helpful:

Cam break in
Adjusting hydraulic lifters
Valve train points to check
Valve train geometry
Valve spring installed height
HEI distributor info
 
#4 ·
Cobalt is right on point with this. With all the plugs removed from the oil passages (including the one under the rear main cap) it's something you can do yourself. If you're going to brush hone the bores now is the time before you wash it. Using hotter water will slow down any rusting until you can get it dried off and WD40'd. Then once you've done all this install the cam bearings and oil plugs.
 
#6 · (Edited)
Your problems are just starting, this engine sounds pretty totaled and who ever sold it to you knew that. The problems you describe are pretty typical for a high mileage worn out SBC. Pulling the engine apart will do more damage as it isn't likely you'll get the pistons out without wrecking them and the rings in the process. At a minimum the bore will have a ridge, taper and glazed cylinder walls. The lowest cost solution will involve reaming the ridge, and honing the bores. If the pistons came out the bottom, they might survive to be reringed and reused if the shop remembers the old fashion way of doing this work. Another big "if" with an expensive backside if this doesn't work.

I'm not sure why you're changing cam bearings and turning the crank unless there is specific damage or wear that need to be fixed. Your problems are:

- First, you've got to know for sure where coolant was getting into the oil. If it was only the cracked head and replacement of the head and its gasket corrected the problem that's one down and good to go so far as coolant in oily places is concerned.

- Second, Chevy's ate cam lobes and lifters for many years; this is not an usual let alone uncommon failure. This happens over a long time period while the lobe and lifter grind each other to powder. This doesn't tend to put any debris into the oil large enough to do damage. Changing the cam, lifters and timing set while in there should be sufficient.

- The oil pump, well oil pressure, I'm not sure from your writing what the problem is if there is a problem at all. Engine oil pressure cold should idle about 40 to 60 pounds. Bringing the revs up when cold the pressure should go to 55-65 pounds which is where the relief valve opens and the pressure will go no higher. Hot idle that should drop to 15-25 pounds. When hot you should see the cruise pressure climb to 40-60 pounds by the time the engine is spinning a couple thousand RPMs. If it doesn't hold that kind of minimum pressure there's a problem, usually that problem is worn out main and rod bearings (the replaceable shell part). The crank's main and rod journals could also be worn or damaged with similar symptoms, if it is the replaceable bearing shells are also shot, but the shells can wear out while the journals remain serviceable. You don't know till it gets opened up and things are measured. Installation of a high volume pump is not a cure for worn journals and bearings and is not necessary for a stock rebuild.

When you look at where this could be headed, it may be wiser financially to consider a low level crate 350 like the Goodwrench. As worn out 400's almost always drag you into really expensive repairs. You'll find when it's open the pistons and rings are shot, count on the damper needing replacement. I'm sure the 200 bucks to dip the block in cleaner also includes Magnaflux inspection to see if there are anymore cracks in the casting. This is mighty important as Magnaflux or dye-penetrant inspection is looking for cracks the eye can't see, something old castings are often full off. Such a discovery is the end of the block it's now just scrap iron with an interesting shape. Then you'll have to replace the block. See how this just keeps adding up? When rebuilding an engine, the cheap way out always leads back in. There's just no substitute for doing it right or replace the whole thing. The mass rebuilders or inexpensive new crate motors from GM can get you a totally fresh motor for no more money, if as much, as messing around one part at a time at the corner parts/shop store trying to make an old motor reasonably reliable. this is an estimate you need to make before getting in very deep. That first 200 you spend might be the best money you ever spend. Or forget the situational analysis and just repalce the darn thing.

This has every potential of becoming very expensive. If the engine holds decent oil pressure as I described and doesn't leak coolant into the oil or on the ground, my recommendation would be to postpone the high dollar work as long as possible. Put a cam and a set of lifters in it and call it good for now.

Bogie
 
#7 ·
If you do decide to clean clean it up,don't forget the oil pump has to come apart to be completely cleaned as does the oil pick-up.

As far as the Goodwrench solution,since GM decided to out source that to Mexico,I don't see that any-longer as a valid solution.We have have customers bring those to us that they bought before talking to us and the overall big picture is pretty poor.
 
#8 ·
Thanks guys. The info yall have posted has been very helpful.

oldbogie. Im not dumping antifreeze into the oil no more.
The issues I having now are.
Driver side rear rockerarm isnt moving as much as the rest. (Flat cam)
When I start up the oil pressure is around 50ish if i give it gas it will raise to around 60ish. after running for 10 mins or so it drops to 0. If i give it gas it will increase to 35 / 40 ish.

Theres no misfiring.
No coolent in oil.
compression on all cylinders is 125.
There is no smoking or banging or odd noises. (Theres a light tapping from the area wear the rocker arm isn't moving as much.

I was having the crank turned just to make sure there is no damage to the main or rod bearings.
 
#9 ·
Thanks for the pic 1gery. Yes they help alote.

Im not sure what to do here. What are the chances of the block it self being bad.

If i give the engine a good cleaning - have the crank turned - new cam and cam bearings installed - new oil pump - what are the chances the engine will be fine?

What should I do?
 
#13 ·
It's fact everyone has to face sooner or later.The only insurance you have is a build you did yourself with the aid of a machine shop.
Yet the condition your describing does lend it's self to replacing the cam and lifters,do oil changes for awhile in short intervals because of cam break-in and what happened.That is the lowest cost move you could make.If in anyway the mains or rods bearings where damaged aside from normal mileage wear,it would show up in the oil pressure.Btw-don't go nuts with the cam swap.
 
#16 ·
Doing anything to that engine without flushing out all the oil passages is a huge gamble. All the metal that came off the cam is in the oil and is very fine like sand paper. I have never seen an internal crack effect oil pressure.
Your symptoms sound like a typical cam bearing issue.
You could try a cam and bearings but I think it is a gamble.
I have flushed a few blocks in the car by taking out the plug by the oil filter and on other in the system at the front and pumping clean transmission fluid through the oil passages. We had a small pump like a cleaning tank pump tat we could throw in a bucket of transmission fluid or kerosene to flush. We would then use this same method to pump some clean oil through before filling and starting. It is a lot cheaper than a complete tear down but a gamble none the less.
 
#17 ·
I don't think there is a guaranteed, safe and sure approach. If there is a ridge and the crank journals are ground smaller, being a bit off-center could drive the rings into the ridge with enough force to crack or break a piston. I think doing what's cheapest, and being willing to accept negative consequences is the wise approach. Follow Bogie's cam replacement suggestion, do a minimum of other work, and if worse comes to worst, buy a goodwrench motor. The goodwrench isn't exciting, but it should get you down the road for100,000 or more miles.

PatM
 
#19 ·
For the most part, I agree with what has been said, the reason that you're getting a pretty decent span of answers is that what you're actually dealing with can be quite different depending on how really worn that engine is and none of us can see what you're seeing.

Where I'm going to disagree is what I think you should do.

I'm sure that you don't want to hear it but the way I see it, based on what you wrote, you basically caused your own problems:
- you got ripped off to start with, the wiring problem and fresh oil thing to cover up something with a cracked head
- you probably wiped out the bearings by firing it without changing the oil with antifreeze in the oil (sounds like when you first fired it it was actually still OK and then it got worse from the mayo you had in the oil pan).

In both cases it sounds like just a lack of experience/knowledge.

Now honestly, sounds like the shop you're dealing with is quoting you _really_ decent prices, like I couldn't get the work done that you listed for 2x that locally, so as far as that goes, if they do even OK work... wow.

Secondly, if you're really tight on money, I hate to say it but you're opening such a can of worms here that I suspect that if you started tearing it down and cleaning it yourself you'll end up costing yourself a ton more money. That's fine if you have time, some money, don't need the truck running and want to learn.

If any of that is not the case then I'd suggest a totally different approach: find a good running take out small block (friend, jy...) or a basic crate engine depending on what $$$ you can come up with. Even a reasonable crate engine will cost you less then you'll end up into this one by the time you clean it up, rebuild it and get it running again.

Another thing to note, unless you're spending real money on it, most people won't be able to tell a 305 from a 400 in a full size truck. Don't overlook the "I bought a project car with a good running 305 that I took out to swap in a 350 you can have it if you want it" deals to get you up and running/having some fun with it. The right intake, long tube headers, mild cam... this thing will be just as fun cruising and from a stop light as a mild (and especially worn out) 400. Same thing with a "stock replacement" 350
 
#20 ·
Buying parts before you take it apart to measure and inspect everything is a sure fire way to end up buying something twice. You have 3 options
1. throw a crank kit and cam kit at it and pray to the deity of your choice.
2. pull them thing out and do it right.
3. as suggested find a running small block to get you around til you can afford option #2
I can't afford #1
 
#21 ·
What am I missing Other then vatting.
The shop has already walked me threw sets I can do at home to semi vatt the engine - according to them if I fallow there sets ill be fine.

I know not to buy parts unless I know Im going to use them I just getting a plain if something is bad.
Im not buying nothing for-sure until tare down.

If I was to get a new crank - 185 + 30 for good bearings. or have mine turned with new bearing for 250.
New cam- 125 with new lifters and bearings.
New - Moly Rings Kit - 30$
Iv already got a new oil pump in the box.
My heads are brand new.

The only thing Im missing new are pistons - I ran compression check today and had 145psi on each cylender (DRY) Wet was 150psi.
So all the cylinders have the same compression so I dont see much reason to bore or hone the cylinders.

The only thing I could be missing is the vatting and magnaflx.
Iv checked the block decking and its fine.
Im not dumping water into the crank case like I was with the head.
So the only thing that could be wrong is the block having a cracked oil passage and the race shop and a few other posters have already said its slim to none chances of that happening.


I would understand the push to have the race shop do all the work or getting a new short block if I had spun a cam bearing or such.
The thing runs with out a kock bag or miss and holds oil psi when on the gas (It doesnt twitch or anything like that)



One thing I noticed today is *On my 66 chevy the oil psi gauge has 0 to 6*
When running at temp = the orallys gauge says no oil psi. The one on the dash shows 20ish - when I shut the engine off it goes back to 0 like normal.
When I start up cold the dash says almost 60.

I told the race shop this today and they informed me that the cheap orallys gauges dont always work right and after they get water/antifreeze in them like mine did they dont work right forsure.

Please dont be rude to me.

This truck has been a dream my whole life- dont bring me down more please Im not trying to hall ssa it. Im mean no disrespect to anyone and I hear what each and everyone of yall are saying.

My big issues are I have a kid - one on the way -a wife that hates me - My dad/best friend just died - no job full time but i do make good money for the work.

I know my way around the top side of any engine.
Iv changed oil pumps and rod bearing before.
Iv just never jumped off into the world of cam bearing and stuff like that. Altho I do know the operations.

Thanks guys.
 
#22 ·
No matter if you take my advise or for that matter anyone else's,sometimes it come down to your gut feeling along with what everyone has posted combined or just your gut feeling.

I mean with all the respect I can convey typing,my heart and soul goes out to you when you honestly say this is your dream rod.

I truly hope this whole thing turns around and starts working out for you.:thumbup:
 
#23 ·
Thanks gary1.

I wanna take the best path. I dont know if Im missing something or what.
What else could be wrong with the block its self other then a cracked oil port??
I know its not dumping water into the block so there no crack there and the chance of a crack in the oil passage are slim to none.

Im going to reread this whole thread to see if Im missing something thanks....


BTW @ silverback.
No sir I did not get ripped off.
Iv got 200$ cash into the whole truck and thats for the new head with a 15k warrenty.

I trade a 1993 ford f150 5.0 with a e4od trans that had over 300k (I paid 500 for it 5 years ago)
It was a clean truck but it snapped 3 piston rings and was blowing oil allover the place threw the air filter.
Dont get me wrong it was a damn good truck - I drove it to Fargo ND once and then back with snapped rings. I went threw 6 GALLONs OF OIL and there was a lack of power but she did it.... I pretty much pushed her right up to the end and she wouldn give. (They say its not the god in the fight its the fight in the dog and this thing fought) I was realy sad to see it go but something about the 66 made me fall in love. Maybe it was because my dad once own it - i dont know. in the end I dont fell I got hurt.

Here are some photos of the truck.
imagejpeg_5_zps611d1ef2.jpg Photo by Bluemule93 | Photobucket

You can also see photos of the 77 trans am 6.6 - It was a dream of mine i had to let go. There was only 248 made in this style in 77.
 
#24 ·
I've been following this for a bit.

Sounds like your oil pressure is fine and your gauge is a dud, unless I misunderstood you. You need to verify this, and it can be done quite easily. If the engine is apart, then use an air pressure regulator and verify the accuracy of your gauge with shop air applying it at the line that attaches to the block. If the engine is together, then install a new gauge at the port on the block.

Now, if your oil pressure gauge is the problem, then most likely your pump and bearings are fine, or at least worth inspecting for reuse.

If you deem the bearings reusable and oil pressure in spec, then I believe your repair options have changed. I think you should either do the minimum possible and save money for when you are ready to do it right, or do it right to begin with. As you well know, doing it right is alot of money.

Turning the crank, installing new bearings, cam, oil pump, piston rings along with using your current good heads without boring the cylinders is like, umm, physics without calculus or marriage without sex.....what's the point.

I've been in the same spot your in with customer's engines and my advice is always the same - put a bandaid on it by repairing only what is bad or do it completely so that you know exactly what you have.

Good luck and nice truck - noticed in the picture the very original looking, leaking, single line master cylinder - BE careful with that, especially if your kids/family will be riding with you.

Good luck!;)
 
#25 ·
Most of these guys are steering u in the right direction. I kinda went throuh this with my Gen 6 454 build. Had tons of water in the oil. Only 6k miles since rebuild. It took me 4 days to figure out the intake had been rotted away. Long story short. It washed all the bearings..

So I went the best, cheapest route I could, which I suggest for you.

Had block
cleaned,
checked,
honed - u must hone it to get the new rings to seal correctly,
decked to zero- (u probably dont need this),
new cam bearings installed,
brass freeze plugs,
Pistons and rods cleaned- (coulda done it myself),
Crank was going to be polished but ended up needing turned- (u might be able to polish yours),
They supplied me new rod and crank bearings as well..
$498 out the door of the machine shop..

Rings cost me $40 and I bought a roller cam for $200. Not bad since I paid $75 for the engine..

I also think $200 to clean a block and check it is extremely high to me. If he quoted u that I would be looking else where for my work to be done. I went ahead and did all this. Well cause I dont wanna do it again for a long time. Less worries as well. I have tried doing it the cheap route just replacing stuff. Trying to get an engine going. But its worth the time and cash to do it right and have an engine capable of 150k + miles before needing reworked again...

As far as your going in it might as well..

Just have the other head rebuilt as well, get u a descent ft cam and use the right break in additive. I am sure u could get out for less then $1000.. Then u know exactly what ya got and not just buying a little more time.

Sign at the shop says "How fast u wanna go? Well, how much money do u Have?" Same is about True for how reliable u want it.

Yeah those cheap oil psi guages arent worth a dam... Autometer or trusted brand is best...
 
#26 ·
If you get up into the $1000 price range for all the work and parts I think its time to look at crate engines. The GM Goodwrench 350 goes for about $1400 and it has a 3 year/50k mile warranty. Although some folks still have doubts about these engines because they are made in Mexico, I have been using one in my truck for the last 7 or 8 years and it has been completely reliable.

Swapping in a crate engine also has time advantages, if that is important to you. You could pull the old engine and swap all the accessories over on a Saturday, and have the new one back in the truck on Sunday. It is a relatively simple job if you have a cherry picker to pull out the engine.

Bruce
 
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