sbc inneed of medical attention 911 - Page 6 - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Engine
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #76 (permalink)  
Old 05-03-2013, 02:13 PM
bigdog7373's Avatar
Of course it's fast
 
Last photo:
Join Date: May 2010
Location: florida
Posts: 2,670
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 13
Thanked 49 Times in 49 Posts
He should warranty the work he did. If he put the engine together knowing there is a problem then he better take it back apart and fix it instead of giving you some bs that he's not warrantying it.
On another note, if he honed it there shouldn't be any rust in the cylinders. There shouldn't be any rust anywhere inside the motor.

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to bigdog7373 For This Useful Post:
sweetlil66 (05-03-2013)
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #77 (permalink)  
Old 05-03-2013, 05:01 PM
sweetlil66's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 106
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 197
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Thanks big dog. Im going to call him and speak with him right now.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #78 (permalink)  
Old 05-03-2013, 06:12 PM
1Gary's Avatar
Registered User
 

Last journal entry: 383 dyno sym
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Roch,NY
Age: 67
Posts: 1,543
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 201
Thanked 156 Times in 142 Posts
Hold on for a minute.I am thinking he sensed you not wanting to spend for new pistons and tried the standard rebuilder's move of hone and go.Then found not CRUSTY RUST,but rust pits.So moving forward towards a bore,have it sonic checked before you pull the trigger on that.If that machine shop can't do that kind of work or can't hone with torque plates,find someone who can and return the parts you can no longer use.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to 1Gary For This Useful Post:
sweetlil66 (05-04-2013)
  #79 (permalink)  
Old 05-03-2013, 07:24 PM
496CHEVY3100's Avatar
Appalachian American
 

Last journal entry: ,
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Appalachia GA
Posts: 882
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 525
Thanked 341 Times in 298 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by sweetlil66 View Post
Update.

I went ahead a fallowed yalls advice and had the shop do all the work.
The crank did end up needing to be turned - The mains wear bad but the rods wear not to bad.
We found 3 rods and or pistons that wear backwards.
I got a new ring/bearing gasket set.
I got the vating done.
Everything was worked on and or cleaned except for having the cylinders bored and new pistons.

Now heres what threw me for one.
I had him assemble the lower end for me because i was lacking some tools - with the new parts and labor it was 600$.

I told the shop own upon dropping the engine off- If the walls wear in spec and it wold run happy as is do not bore just hone.

Yesterday when i get there to fill out paper work and such. he tells me he wasnt going to warranty the engine because the rust that WAS in the one of the cylinders - Since he did not bore it and just hone it he did know how long the engine should last. He was saying rust can cause some crazy stuff to happen.

I kinda wish he would have called me and told me this before hand..One would think by me saying IF EVERYTHING WAS IN SPEC this would mean any thing that could effect life of the engine and or warranty.. It sounds like to me he is saying it may only last a few thousand miles. What did I pay for?

Like I said last time I checked compression the engine had 135 across all cylinders so I assume there not to much wrong with the walls.
He honed the engine - I can see the crosscutting in the walls. Some of the cylinders had a light ring at the top and others have a more noticeable ring around the top.....

So everything is new expt pistons and the walls being bore.


He said with the cam I used - I needed to change valve springs over to a bigger set. Something to do with the exhaust valve wiping out the lobs of the cam? He sold me a set for both heads - exhaust and intake for 30$. He said Ill remove a shim at the top of the spring and re-use valve keeper.




He said as far as my break in goes - I should use Valvoline Vr1 racing oil - MAKE SURE IT HAS ZINC.
He told me to run 20 min at @2k then change the oil filter - then drive 500 miles and do a oil change again. Altho He said this Im really leaning to Grays - joe Gibbs racing oil for break-in oil for the break in and then changing to oil to http://www.summitracing.com/parts/jgr-02006


Anyway. If yall got any idea on the above please post.

I got the short block and putting it together soon.
Try not to keep a constant 2000,vary it a little 1800-2300 ,when you reve it then back off it helps wash down the cylinder wall to seat rings faster, after break in the walls will retain oil in the rings around piston and in hone marks ,so after break in it does not matter about rpm then ,GOOD ADVICE USE ZINC but Vavoline RACING oil does not contain ash ,it is for cars with Roller cams ,Not my first choice
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to 496CHEVY3100 For This Useful Post:
sweetlil66 (05-04-2013)
  #80 (permalink)  
Old 05-04-2013, 12:33 AM
sweetlil66's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 106
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 197
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Gary View Post
Hold on for a minute.I am thinking he sensed you not wanting to spend for new pistons and tried the standard rebuilder's move of hone and go.Then found not CRUSTY RUST,but rust pits.So moving forward towards a bore,have it sonic checked before you pull the trigger on that.If that machine shop can't do that kind of work or can't hone with torque plates,find someone who can and return the parts you can no longer use.
Not quite understanding. He did say I should get some good miles out of it but wasnt sure. After speaking with him today. He did say he would warranty the lower end but not the cylinder and or say how much compression I should Have. He said only one cylinder had enf rust to really worrie about.
He did fix alote of stuff.
A few of his guys said that if I use good oil and I had the 130 compression I claimed from before the rebuild It should be no problem to get 100k.

The short block is together ext for pan gasket and oil pump. What do you mean have parts returned gray? Thanks all.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #81 (permalink)  
Old 05-04-2013, 07:51 AM
1Gary's Avatar
Registered User
 

Last journal entry: 383 dyno sym
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Roch,NY
Age: 67
Posts: 1,543
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 201
Thanked 156 Times in 142 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by sweetlil66 View Post
Not quite understanding. He did say I should get some good miles out of it but wasnt sure. After speaking with him today. He did say he would warranty the lower end but not the cylinder and or say how much compression I should Have. He said only one cylinder had enf rust to really worrie about.
He did fix alote of stuff.
A few of his guys said that if I use good oil and I had the 130 compression I claimed from before the rebuild It should be no problem to get 100k.

The short block is together ext for pan gasket and oil pump. What do you mean have parts returned gray? Thanks all.
Well what I am saying is this,from what your saying,is a new game in that now you have perfectly round rings<unlike before worn to whatever the bore was in that one cylinder>trying to seal against a nu-smooth bore surface.So your compression from before really doesn't come into play anymore.He's saying this because of the fact,sounds like,he can't be sure how that cylinder will ever seal correctly,nor now what your compression will be now or for the long term.That is a gamble now.

No doubt about it,guys are forced to do clean up oversized bores for situations just like yours.And that reinforces the need for sonic checks to see wall thickness so the machinist knows how much a block can be safely over-bored. If it is enough for him saying he won't stand behind the one bore,than it is enough for you to be concerned about it.

You have been through hell with this not even knowing if it could be saved.Now is not the time to make what could be a risk bad decision and not have the insurance of standing behind a rebuild with your wallet to buy new pistons for the over-bore and that rings to go with it.Returning the rings you have now which wouldn't work on a different bore size.

BTW as the saying goes:



Without detailed pictures of the bore in question,all we can do is form a opinion from what your telling us.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to 1Gary For This Useful Post:
sweetlil66 (05-05-2013)
  #82 (permalink)  
Old 05-05-2013, 01:49 AM
sweetlil66's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 106
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 197
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
He did say the cylinders wear with in spec of 030. over stock bore and said I could easily get to 060. with no issues.. *** He claimed that I should get alote of miles out of it***
He claims that it appears to him that some one had rebuilt the engine and used cheap parts and installed the pistons wrong. He believe someone did not use the proper oils for or after breakin and it killed the cam and took everything else with it. He did not think from looking at the cylinder walls that many miles had been turned. He aslo said any engine that he works on that has had any kinda rust in it he does not warranty unless bored.
He also noted - The crack mains wear bad and rods wear almost perfect spec.
He said someone could have ran it out time to far and that could cause the mains to take a beating.
We know that rust from that cylinder was form a cracked head.
After speaking with him today he claimed to support the lower end if it has any issues.

Im done here. This is going to have to work or im getting ride of the thing. I can not do this with a disabled wife and 1 kid and anther on the way with no job.

Im sure if there was a major problem he would have not done the work. He just comes of that kinda guy to me. He was so picky about his work he woulden install my timing cover because it was dirty (He said if I wanted it installed - I would have to have it vatted- He vatted it for free (30 min wait) He installed it and sent me on my way.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #83 (permalink)  
Old 05-05-2013, 02:48 AM
lhmurphy's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Indiana
Posts: 185
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 34
Thanked 7 Times in 6 Posts
I hope you get that thing back to running! But when you do the rebuild ask your machinist about putting one single tiny groove in each lifter bore to help oil your cam. The grooves are cut differently on the driver and passenger side lifter bores (If it's a hydraulic flat tappet) If he has the tool it would be a little more insurance that a machinist should do for free if he is working on your block. Good Luck! Hope you get it done!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to lhmurphy For This Useful Post:
sweetlil66 (05-05-2013)
  #84 (permalink)  
Old 05-07-2013, 01:37 AM
sweetlil66's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 106
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 197
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
When I started this whole bizz I installed a new oil pump (This is before I knew the issues)
It was a high vol oil pump. Im wondering if I should reuse it or not. Pretty much all new oil was ran threw it but I worry about grit from the flat cam possibly hurting the pump or being inside the pump its self.... If i reuse I plain to PRIM the pump a few mins cycling any junk inside . The pump its self did not see more then a 1 or less of run time. What should I do?

Also Is it possible to install or change valve springs with the heads on?
The shop guy solid me bigger/stronger valve springs and told me to remove this upside down blow washer looking thing (Not sure what he called it) - I just ordered a valve spring compressor and wont see it for almost a weak - I dont want the heads of that long because the engine is in the house (Living room) and I have kids. We all know the saying (SOME PEOPLES KIDS) That saying was ment for my kids lol.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #85 (permalink)  
Old 05-07-2013, 02:23 AM
sweetlil66's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 106
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 197
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Im not sure what to do here.
The head on the truck had.
Valve shim - spring - A bowl that sets down on the valve about a 1ich or so -Valve lock/keeper

Now the exhaust valves is the only differences between the the head I got new and the head on my truck. The exhaust had shim- valve spring - cup that covers 1ich of the spring (Kinda looks like it to protect the spring or something) - Valve spring cup(Looks like this VALVE SPRING CUPS, USE WITH STOCK OD SBC SPRINGS ON AFTERMARKET HEADS - Alex's Parts Sales) - valve spring RETAINER.

new head -Shim - Spring - bowl - cup - RETAINER (only on )
Other head- Shim - Spring - bowl - RETAINER - Ill try to upload a pic.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #86 (permalink)  
Old 05-07-2013, 11:49 PM
cobalt327's Avatar
WFO
 
Last wiki edit: Intake manifold
Last journal entry: 1980 Malibu Wagon
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Atlanta
Age: 60
Posts: 5,037
Wiki Edits: 1616

Thanks: 128
Thanked 598 Times in 547 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by sweetlil66 View Post
Im not sure what to do here.
The head on the truck had.
Valve shim - spring - A bowl that sets down on the valve about a 1ich or so -Valve lock/keeper

Now the exhaust valves is the only differences between the the head I got new and the head on my truck. The exhaust had shim- valve spring - cup that covers 1ich of the spring (Kinda looks like it to protect the spring or something) - Valve spring cup(Looks like this VALVE SPRING CUPS, USE WITH STOCK OD SBC SPRINGS ON AFTERMARKET HEADS - Alex's Parts Sales) - valve spring RETAINER.

new head -Shim - Spring - bowl - cup - RETAINER (only on )
Other head- Shim - Spring - bowl - RETAINER - Ill try to upload a pic.
The tin shield you're describing is an oil shield (below). It, along w/a small rubber O-ring, was Chevy's way of controlling the amount of oil reaching the valve stem. This was used into the '80s.



The shields can be done away with if the seal is changed to a positive-type seal instead of the shield and O-ring setup. Otherwise, reuse them along w/new O-rings.

You need to see if the exhaust valves have rotators on them (left valve below, right valve has regular retainer). Rotators are a type of retainer that allows the exhaust valve to turn as the engine runs to lessen wear. They are thicker than the retainers found on intake valves, and are not generally used in performance applications.



The springs can be changed w/the heads on the engine. This is done w/compressed air to keep the valves closed or by filling the cylinder w/thin rope or cord until it's full, then the crank is rotated to push the piston against the rope to hold the valves closed. This is done on each cylinder on the compression stroke. We can add details if you need them.

The spring compressor has to be the type that works on a head assembled to the block. Some compressors can only be used w/the head off the engine as I'm sure you know.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to cobalt327 For This Useful Post:
sweetlil66 (05-08-2013)
  #87 (permalink)  
Old 05-07-2013, 11:55 PM
cobalt327's Avatar
WFO
 
Last wiki edit: Intake manifold
Last journal entry: 1980 Malibu Wagon
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Atlanta
Age: 60
Posts: 5,037
Wiki Edits: 1616

Thanks: 128
Thanked 598 Times in 547 Posts
A diagram naming the components. The stock tin oil shield rotator type exhaust retainer isn't shown:



Below the tin oil shield is #9, the small O-ring is #8. The retainer is #5, can be a rotator type retainer on exhaust valves on some heads as I mentioned earlier. The head below is from a Chevy V6 but is the same as the V8 minus a cylinder:


Last edited by cobalt327; 05-08-2013 at 12:17 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to cobalt327 For This Useful Post:
sweetlil66 (05-08-2013)
  #88 (permalink)  
Old 05-08-2013, 02:32 AM
sweetlil66's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 106
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 197
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327 View Post
The tin shield you're describing is an oil shield (below). It, along w/a small rubber O-ring, was Chevy's way of controlling the amount of oil reaching the valve stem. This was used into the '80s.



The shields can be done away with if the seal is changed to a positive-type seal instead of the shield and O-ring setup. Otherwise, reuse them along w/new O-rings.

You need to see if the exhaust valves have rotators on them (left valve below, right valve has regular retainer). Rotators are a type of retainer that allows the exhaust valve to turn as the engine runs to lessen wear. They are thicker than the retainers found on intake valves, and are not generally used in performance applications.



The springs can be changed w/the heads on the engine. This is done w/compressed air to keep the valves closed or by filling the cylinder w/thin rope or cord until it's full, then the crank is rotated to push the piston against the rope to hold the valves closed. This is done on each cylinder on the compression stroke. We can add details if you need them.

The spring compressor has to be the type that works on a head assembled to the block. Some compressors can only be used w/the head off the engine as I'm sure you know.
Well your my new BFF!
He wants me to remove the rotators.
The pic you posted with the rotators on the left and non-rotators on the right is the way the new head is set up.
The head that was on the truck - Has rotators removed. So did the junk head.

QUOTE- The shields can be done away with if the seal is changed to a positive-type seal instead of the shield and O-ring setup. Otherwise, reuse them along w/new O-rings.

Do I need to do away with them? Im screed to death im gonna kill the cam on break in - Iv been reading horror story's!
I did speak with him to day and he said I need to remove the -Rotators (Use the spring& Retainers I got and make the exhaust valve look like the intake.
He built the head so Im guessing he knows what he is talking about.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #89 (permalink)  
Old 05-08-2013, 06:51 PM
cobalt327's Avatar
WFO
 
Last wiki edit: Intake manifold
Last journal entry: 1980 Malibu Wagon
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Atlanta
Age: 60
Posts: 5,037
Wiki Edits: 1616

Thanks: 128
Thanked 598 Times in 547 Posts
You can remove the rotators, this is commonly done. Remember to check the valve spring installed height. This is important because some heads had different depth spring pockets and others used shorter exhaust springs to compensate for the rotators. In the end, you want the springs all installed to their specified installed height so the spring pressures are correct for the cam you're using.

As for the seals, if you are NOT using positive type oil seals on the valve stems, reuse the tin shields and O-ring like the factory used for many years.

If you remove the tin shields and only use the O-rings the valve guides will pass more oil than is necessary. That can hurt performance by contaminating the incoming air/fuel mixture w/oil and can allow carbon to build up on the back sides of the valves, hurting flow. And the engine may smoke.

If you remove the tin shields AND do not use the O-rings, the engine WILL smoke.

Info:

Valve spring installed height
Valve train points to check
Valve train geometry
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to cobalt327 For This Useful Post:
sweetlil66 (05-10-2013)
  #90 (permalink)  
Old 05-10-2013, 09:06 PM
sweetlil66's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 106
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 197
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327 View Post
You can remove the rotators, this is commonly done. Remember to check the valve spring installed height. This is important because some heads had different depth spring pockets and others used shorter exhaust springs to compensate for the rotators. In the end, you want the springs all installed to their specified installed height so the spring pressures are correct for the cam you're using.

As for the seals, if you are NOT using positive type oil seals on the valve stems, reuse the tin shields and O-ring like the factory used for many years.

If you remove the tin shields and only use the O-rings the valve guides will pass more oil than is necessary. That can hurt performance by contaminating the incoming air/fuel mixture w/oil and can allow carbon to build up on the back sides of the valves, hurting flow. And the engine may smoke.

If you remove the tin shields AND do not use the O-rings, the engine WILL smoke.

Info:

Valve spring installed height
Valve train points to check
Valve train geometry

Thanks colbt. The first link isnt working but iv been looking around and found the fallowing info. Is this rihgt?
Valve Spring Tech
Valve Spring Pocket Clearance

Valve spring pocket clearance is the gap between the inside diameter of the valve spring pocket (or cup, if used) and the outside diameter of the valve spring.
Too much clearance will result in the spring "dancing" around in the head, which "beats up" the spring mounting surface and the spring itself. If this is the case, a spring cup may be used. Additional machining of the spring pocket may be required to accept the spring cup.
Not enough clearance will bind the spring in the pocket, overstressing the bottom coil by limiting its movement and not allowing the spring to "grow". This will cause the bottom coil to wear against the head and/or prematurely fail. Machine the valve pocket using a Spring Seat Cutter if not enough clearance exists.

Valve Spring Retainer Fit

The valve spring retainer should fit the valve spring being used. A slightly snug fit is acceptable, however a fit that is too tight can overstress the top coil, and cause it to fail. A fit that is too loose can lead to spring "dancing."
Valve Spring Installed Height

The installed height of the valve spring is the distance between the valve pocket (or cup, or shims) and the outer edge of the spring retainer (which is the height of the valve spring) when the valve is closed. To check installed height, follow the following procedure:
Install the valve in the guide.
Install the retainer and valve locks.
Install all spring cups and/or valve spring shims (basically, everything except the valve spring).
Hold the valve closed by pulling the retainer up tightly against the valve locks.
Measure the distance between the outside edge of the valve spring retainer and the spring seat. A snap gage or a height micrometer should be used.
Check the distance against what is recommended on the camshaft specification card. An installed height of +/- 0.020" is acceptable.
If the installed height is not within 0.020", either machining of the valve pocket, or removal/installation of valve spring shims is necessary.
Repeat this procedure for the rest of the valves.

Valve Spring Retainer to Valve Seal Clearance

The distance between the innermost step on the valve spring retainer and the valve guide must be 0.090" larger than the maximum valve lift of the camshaft. Measure the distance between the top of the valve seal to the bottom of the valve spring retainer. After adding 0.090" to your measurement, it should still be larger than the maximum valve lift of the camshaft. If not, machining of the valve guide in necessary for adequate clearance.
Valve Spring Coil Clearance

Coil clearance is the distance between the valve spring coils when the valve is it maximum lift (fully open). A minimum of 0.060" must exist between the coils at maximum lift. Coil bind is when the valve spring is compressed fully-to the point that all of the coils are "stacked up" on top of each other. For high RPM applications, .100" is recommended . Coil bind is a catastrophic condition that will result in valve train failure. Disassemble each spring (if multiple springs are employed at each valve). Check all the springs (both inner, and outer springs) If there is not 0.060" - 0.100" minimum of clearance between the coils, the solutions are: the valve retainer, the valve locks, the valve, or the spring must be changed; the spring pocket must be machined. Keep in mind that these modifications will change the valve spring installed height

Valve Spring Retainer to Rocker Arm Clearance

When installing the rocker arms, check to see that the inside of the rocker arms clear the spring retainers. Many rocker arms have a "relief" to accommodate large valve spring retainers.
Valve Spring Run-In

Each set of Lunati valve springs are hand-selected to keep load variations below +/- 10% of the next. However, it is important to "run in" your new valve springs at low RPM using the following procedure:
Start the engine and run the engine between 1500 and 2000 RPM until the engine reaches operating temperature.
Shut off the engine and allow the springs to cool.
After initial run-in, most springs will lose a slight amount of pressure. Re-check and shim up the valve springs if necessary. After the springs are "run in", spring pressure should remain constant until the point of replacement.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Engine posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
medical nos BLZR81 Engine 4 01-23-2010 07:32 AM
Medical Oxygen Regulators ? kdc49 Garage - Tools 21 04-04-2006 10:52 PM
What are your medical conditions? lluciano77 Hotrodders' Lounge 62 12-01-2004 12:03 PM
medical question 40fordtruck_son Hotrodders' Lounge 28 10-17-2004 02:18 PM
New Medical Breakthrough Kevin45 Hotrodders' Lounge 8 06-23-2004 11:09 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:44 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.