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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 07-20-2008, 06:08 PM
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Your method of setting the intial valve adjustment is incorrect.
You must set the valves as follows.
Set the intake valves when the exhaust valves (on that cylinder) just starts to open. Just starts to move.
Set the exhaust valves when the intakes. Just returns to seat. just closes.

These are the only positions where you can assure that you are on the cam lobe heal for the valve you are adjusting.

Using you incorrect method can/will cause camshaft failure in start up.

There is no valid reason why such a mild, simple, near stock motors needs a stud girdle.

Thre is nothing wrong with UEM/KB pistons. There is something wrong with thick headed engine builders that cannot read an install instruction sheet and refuse to or don't bother following KB/UEM's clear install instructions.
These pistons are different. They are made differently and of a different propriatory aluminum alloy. They run differnt in the motor and require a different ring clearance than other pistons.
This different special/unsusual big ring gap clearance appears to be too big.
It is not too big when used on these pistons. Why because they are different.
If you use the tipical/conventional small ring end gap in these pistons and run the motor at WOT, the rings will overheat, expand and lock up resulting in a top piston ring land failure.
NOW the pistons are junk and the dumb *** engine builder who did not follow the install directions for these pistons in the first place, covers his ***/saves face and blames the piston design when the customer wants his busted motor fixed.

When you install them exactly as directed, they work great.
When you ignore, or don't bother with the specific install instructions (who reads the directions) you get trouble.

These pistons when installed correctly are much stronger than a cast piston.
last longer and make more power. They are just shy of forged piston strength.
They will take all kiinds of abuse, but when/if they do fail they fail like a cast piston does. (fracture/shatter).

Forged pistons also fail too but the failure looks different.(distortion,melting)
If any brand or type of piston fails for any reason, it is you that are doing something wrong, not the piston.

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 07-20-2008, 06:25 PM
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I suggest because this is the third or forth cam failure than you tear this motor down and start over. If it was not junk before, It surely is junk now.
It won't make any real power any ways. (junk heads, low compression ratio)

Start over. If you cannot determine exactly what caused the cam failure, scrap the block. Scrap the heads for sure. You may be able to salvage the crank shaft and rods. (after close inspection and remachining)

A replacement usable 350 engine block core that you can restart your build with costs less than a good cam and lifter set.
I am sorry, get a new engine builder.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 07-20-2008, 07:41 PM
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I agree with F-Bird. There have been too many problems with this engine and your machine shop to continue as you have been. The engine will have to come completely apart, be cleaned again, honed (if not bored again), crank polished or ground, pistons replaced (they have metal imbedded in the skirts for sure), etc........

Find a machine shop and that can build a SBC without making it seem like rocket science.

It's not.

tom
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Old 07-20-2008, 08:00 PM
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I definately take to heart what you are saying... as far as the no power - I agree... the engine was advertised to me as a 9.5:1 motor however as ive pointed out the parts in it give me 8.3:1 and an awful quench area...

as the for the valve adjustment what you say makes perfect sense... enough to wipe a cam no idea but since said engine builder always did it this way and we've had a lot of bumpstick stew for dinner i tend to think it could be a cause...

looking at the cam it appears the exhaust lobes are a little worse than intakes... misadjusted? or possible because they were .510's instead of .488's

now the pistons I was referring to as junk are the federal mogul 345NP that are in the motor now.. not the KB hyper U's... funny you mention the ring gap because I was reading the special instructions on that just this evening...

when lookin at the cam bearings and the engine sitting upright.. looking in from the front.. the front cam bearing has an oil hole at 6 and 2 oclock... the rest just have a hole at 6 oclock.. is that correct?

I do plan on scrapping the setup because like you say it wont make any power.. the question at this point is do I put the coin into machining and building a motor or just call jegs and go pic up a crate motor..

i think im gonna go the route of building only because I want to learn further... however a new machine shop is in order... i guess i dont need to wonder why this guy is cryin the blues about no business when other machine shops in the area are swamped...

I also do indeed plan to go hydraulic roller cam regardless of retrofit costs... im done with this flat tappet cam stuff...

so then 2 bolt or 4 bolt? ive seen this debate go on and on through many message boards and have gathered the following:now please let me know if this is wrong...

stock 2 bolt mains - good to 450HP
studded 2 bolt mains good to 500HP
stock 4 bolt mains good to 650HP
2 bolt splayed good for ???? HP..

I will definately stud.. im looking to get 400 horses.. maybe im way off with the parts ive chosen and desktop dynos are only as good as the perfect scenerios the depict..

but then I thought my car felt fast and was squealing the tires with this motor in it... but im guessing i wasnt at the 350 horses the builder advertised...

just nice to have a BB to air this all out on.. but sometimes info overload kicks in... I can search any given part number online for heads, pistons, blocks, cranks, cams, rockers, etc etc and find equal good and bad.. after all an engine only as good as the one who put it together right?

thanks again guys for all the help through this endeavor... im learning.. slowly but surely...
-Christopher
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 07-20-2008, 09:16 PM
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I would start over with a late "roller block" and work from there.
There is a lot to be said for Hyd rollers but I'm not big on the retro fit deal when you are starting from scratch anyways.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 07-20-2008, 10:14 PM
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For cam bearing installation in the SBC, the optimum postions for the oiling holes in #2,3,4, and 5 postions is between 12 and 4 o'clock, looking at the block from the front with the block rightside-up. #1 should have the holes at 12 and 4 o'clock.

tom
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Old 07-21-2008, 05:01 AM
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I think the way you're setting up the valves is wiping the cams and F-bird gave you the right way to do it. Since you adjusted the exhaust when the intake started to close (vs when it's past 2/3rds closed but not fully closed), you probably had some clearance on it which wiped the exhaust lobes worse.

Also, the twirling the pushrod method can be misleading. I like to wiggle the pushrod up and down until all the slack is gone and then go 1/2 turn. Most times the pushrod will still spin easily even after it has contacted the lifter.

Disassembly would be the safest route, but you might get lucky pulling the pan and cleaning/checking everything real good. If you try to get by with an oil and cam change, you'll most likely find yourself in the same spot. If you stay with the flat tappet, take no shortcuts on the break-in - use Rotella diesel oil and a cam break-in additive for the break-in and first several hundred miles.
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Old 07-21-2008, 07:26 AM
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well i think this whole thing is a combination of errors... 1 in the fact the original assembler it appears put the cam bearings in wrong... the oil holes are clearly at 6 o'clock position(oil hole on the bottom) on 2,3,4,5 and at 6 and 2 on #1..

then the engine was falsely advertised to me as a 9.5:1 motor and buyer beware but i never took the time to ask specifics about deck height, head gasket thickness piston height etc... what I got was pistons .042 in the hole average with a .039 gasket and 76cc heads... strike #2...

next he adjusted the valves using the procedure above, told me to use ND-30 oil to break the moly rings and wondered why the first cam wiped..

the motor was torn down and cleaned but not hot-tanked at this time...

the motor never wiped the second cam.. it was changed when the motor was out because the assembler said a bad crank was causing my oil leak.. however it surely shows more wear than whats normal.. and I didnt drive more than a couple hundred miles so thats likely why it didnt wipe..

strike 4 comes when its clammering away , I drive it to the assemblers machine shop and the top dog there says it sounds ok.. just drive it.. oh and still leakin oil... yeah I got a collection of rear main seals on my work bench.. argh!!

so thats when I pulled it out, tore it down and found the cam to be gone... likely as F-bird suggested because i was adjusting the valves wrong... maybe I shouldve read more about this rather than assume my assembler was right about that part of it.. but again my fault I didnt do that...

thats when I got into the shortblock and found the assembler used crappy pistons that sat .042 in the hole.. so by this time my blood is boiling... and after pulling a couple main caps and seeing the shinyness on them surely this engine must come completely apart and get hot-tanked...

is funny F-bird mentions just starting over because im thinking the same thing.... since im gonna have to have this block machined anyway to replace the pistons and rings.. and I want to go to a roller cam.. it seems 87-95 1 pc blocks are not too tough to find.. of course hopefully i dont end up buying a dud like a cracked block or such.. no way to know by looking at it on someone's garage floor i dont think... but then i start from scratch.. get it bored, honed, align honed, and begin building it up..

and yes use a NEW machine shop... ive got a couple leads on shops in my area that come recommended by racers... its amazing what an evening at the track will net you in hearing people talk...

ironically the original machine shop that did the bore / hone for this block comes recommended however the assembler is thought to be a scheister.. but the shop will cover for him because he sends quite a few blocks his way... also ironic that my engine assembler blew his race car up at the track..... maybe there is justice after all...

so.. now fast forward to now and the future.. ive decided I want to build this engine myself.. or is that a pipe dream? sure I'll get the block machined and all.. or does it go so hand in hand that I really need to let the shop build my shortblock? or is it feasible to build the short block in my garage? im just asking because im wanting to learn and the way i learn is by doing.. but I also dont want to sabotage myself..
-Christopher
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 07-21-2008, 10:51 AM
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While the cam bearings were not correctly installed the way they were, they would have been no problem. It's just that the way I described is the better way.

tom
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 07-21-2008, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eldoradoboy
I

when lookin at the cam bearings and the engine sitting upright.. looking in from the front.. the front cam bearing has an oil hole at 6 and 2 oclock... the rest just have a hole at 6 oclock.. is that correct?

I-Christopher
Not installed correctly. The major load on the cam bearings is downward from the 4 to 8 o'clock position. The resulting net thrust vector is the 6 o'clock position, this is where the forces are the greatest. Oil for a journal style bearing is never introduced at the point of maximum load. This type bearing needs to develop a pressure wedge (often referred to as a hydro-dynamic wedge). This wedge is what carries the load, not oil pump pressure. Introducing pump pressure oil at the point of highest load reduces or eliminates the wedge. The proper point to introduce pump pressure oil is just ahead of the maximum load point in the case of a cam that rotates clockwise, same as the crank, when looking from the front of the engine, then is to place the bearing so it's oil feed hole is in the 3 to 4 o'clock position. For the insert with two feed holes the proper position is for the holes to be in the 4 and 8 o'clock position, or the 10 and 2 o'clock position. The latter not quite as good as the 4 to 8 spot but a lot, lot better than the 2 to 6 position.

A good example of introducing pressure oil just ahead of the point(s) of maximum force is the feed hole on the rod journals. You will note that the oil feed hole is several degrees ahead of the position where the bearing is subjected to maximum power stroke forces.

I'd also like to comment to the lack of a cam button. I suffer from never having liked Chevy's lack of positive cam retention vis-a-vis Ford. I feel the lifter/lobe interface of a flat tappet cam has plenty enough to do without also stopping the cam's longitudinal accelerations. So I have for decades put a thrust button on all the Chevy engine's I build and have never suffered a lobe/lifter failure.

Bogie
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 07-21-2008, 03:01 PM
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+2 to what Bogie said.

Don't be scared off on doing your own assembly, sounds like you are intelligent and willing to ask questions when you feel unsure about something, which is a good sign. As MachineShopTom said, it isn't rocket science, and an open mind, eyes, and ears will go far. Between the folks on this board and the real racers in your area, we'll all be able to get yours together
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 07-21-2008, 03:20 PM
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If you REALLY want the cam bearing thing to mess with your mind, look at the stock-block Big-Block Chevy. The oiling holes in the first 4 cam bearings are at 6 o'clock position. Unless cam bearings with a groove on the backside are used, there is no choice BUT to install them at 6 o'clock.............


tom
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 07-22-2008, 05:04 AM
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engine

You have gotten some really good advise so far...

A new machine shop sounds like a good move for you. I agreee with f-bird on the roller block deal. One thing to keep in mind if this engine is going to need a mechanical fuel pump make sure your new block has the mounting boss and (this is important) the hole is drilled for the fuel pump push rod.

As a side note, and maybe i missed it in the thread,,, what type of oil pressure did this thing have when running.


Keith
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Old 07-22-2008, 06:32 AM
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well an update here.. ive got a new machine shop im working with now.. also got a line on a couple blocks as well.. a third one was a giveaway fully running engine.. All id have to have done was pull it out but for the reason posted above it wouldnt work.. it had no mechanical fuel pump provisions... and though ive thought of going electric and may at some point if i decide to run EFI.. right now I want to stay with mechanical.. im not ready to have to run all new fuel lines, have my tank sumped (I dont know how to weld so id have to pay someone) and such to do an electric setup correctly...

the oil pressure at a Hot idle was running 35-40 PSI measured both at the rear port of the engine and at the front pressure port of the engine.. hot cruise (2300 RPM) was upwards of 50-55 PSI. hot meaning after the engine had been running for at least 30 minutes - and with it being hot that also meant my A/C was pumpin too...


amazing how this original engine assembler is cryin the blues about slow economy $4 a gallon gas has Killed his business.. yet other machine shops i talk to are just as busy if not busier than last year... seems a lot of people are rebuilding marginal engines esp in older smaller cars to increase fuel economy.. and yet another segment which is families that instead of spending thousands on family vacations are refreshing that older classic or marginal classic they may have had in the garage for years and doing things close to home like cruise-nights, drive-ins, etc..

let business speak for itself - its not $4 a gallon gas that killed this guy's business.. its more like putting crap together and selling it like gold... people in the car world Do talk.. I just havent been *in the local circle* enough to hear the right stuff...

but i can still get a chuckle about him tossing a rod on his chevy II race car.. yeah I know im not supposed to laugh at other's misfortune...
-Christopher
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 04-27-2010, 12:29 PM
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No oil pressure past the lifters

I have run into the exact same problem,built a motor 350 chev comp cams 280h decent heads etc,ive raced stock cars all my life and built lots of sbcs,never had an oiling problem,in fact ive been building them for 30 years,anyways a quick run down on what happened,installed the motor,joe gibbs break in oil lots of cam lube,primed the pump.fire the motor got 65 pounds pressure but lifters are clanging.Anywas tried many times to set the lifters with it running,and cannot get the clanging out,so i pull the intake and put the pump primer in and spin it,same thing as your motor,oil just trickles out of the lifters and barely shoots oil past the front holes.The back hole with no lifter in shoots oil like crazy.So i think for a minute and i get an old gm lifter put it in the whole,spin the pump and it shoots oil like crazy,i move it from hole to hole and it shoots oil like crazy,yet the other 15 lifters are just trickling oil.So i take out the original gm lifter and take out a new lifter,and compare them,the ony difference is the new lifter has the line in it by the oil hole,as most aftermarket do.So to further experiament,i have another new set of comp cams lifters with the line in them,i put them in and the oil just trickles out,so i get some stock lifters without the line,put 4 in different holes and leave the lifters with the line in them in the other holes,spin the pump,and all the stock lifters without the line pump good oil and the other ones dont.Now i cannot explain what the difference is or why this happening,but i just wanted to add to this post with what i have found with the exact same problem.Is it the lifter ,beats me,but its odd that the ones without the lines work and the ones with the lines dont,and i know for afact in the past ive used both and never had a problem,id be very interested to see what anyone else thinks after reading this.
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