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Old 07-18-2008, 08:24 PM
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sbc lifter oiling help me understand

ok.. as im sure many of you are aware ive got a 355 that my engine builder built out of a large journal 1968 327 block bored .030 and with a 350 crank in it.. that the background...

the lifters in this thing clammer something fierce no matter what i do to adjust.. this is the 2nd cam and 3rd set of lifters in this thing.. so I pulled it out of the car tonight.. took the intake off and valve covers off and started to play.

oh i also took all the pushrods out too... using a high speed drill and a TRUE oil pump prime rod... the one that DOES have the bottom end of a distributor so it will truly oil... anyway spun the drill at about 1200 RPM which should emulate about a 2400 RPM engine run(pressure gauge in rear port went right up to 62 psi).. and I slowly rotated the crank while doing this.... did i get oil? yes and no... the #8 cylinder exhaust valve lifter sprayed oil literally all the way to the wall 5 feet away till I stuck a putty knife over it to keep the spray down.. mind you this is with no pushrods in.. the #5 cylinder intake lifter burbled a little oil out... the rest of them just barely moved a little oil..

so I pulled the rear lifter out on each side of the engine and ran the drill and had LOTS of oil come up through the hole.. that I expected... put them back in.. and pulled the front most 2 lifters and noted not a lot of oil coming through the oiling hole there... do these engines only oil from the rear? I thought the lifter gallery was oiled from the front and back....

so next I put the pushrods in and adjusted the preload 1/2 turn on 2 cylinders... spun the dril and rotated the crank 2 revolutions and just had a little oil our of each of the lifters.. it bubbled up the pushrod a little but sure didnt spray to the wall like the one does....

from what I understand hydraulic lifters are supposed to pump up when the velve is closed and then when the valve opens they are to hold pressure and not let any oil go anywhere.... but on all but 2 im getting very little oil all the time out of the top of them.... i am NOT getting much oil out alongside them which means at least on top im not leaking oil by the lifters..not sure about below.... but are the lifters ever supposed to enter a position as to oil starve the ones farther down?

so maybe my experiment is flawed or maybe not.. but really i need some knowledge from experienced engine guys here as to what might be going on with it.. its just wierd....
-Christopher

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Old 07-19-2008, 12:36 PM
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The small block chevy only oils from the rear, but it has the best designed and working oiling system of just about any engine. Flat tappet lifters have a small hole in the side they get there oil from, the cam rotates as the engine runs and the center of the cam lobes have a slight crown on them to make the lifters spin, as they spin they take in pressurized oil from the main oil galley`s. Since the center section of the lifter is a smaller diameter than the rest of the lifter, this is so the volume of pressurized oil can go past it and to the next lifter, so no matter where the lifter is pointed it still gets pressurized oil, but not as much pressure as it does when the oil hole is pointed to the rear where it`s getting direct oil. Hydraulic lifters are just that, hydraulic. They have lifters that pump up and those that don`t, most of them don`t. since the lifter is recieving pressurized oil from the oil galley as stated, the oil is pumped up through the lifter and into the pushrod and finally onto the rockers, then it drains back to the pan and the cycle starts over. A hydraulic lifter has a spring and a plunger a simple device, so it has some give and this is why these systems are so easy to adjust, you have a lot you can compensate with, You can adjust them 2 turns down past zero lash and the engine will still run once the lifter compensates for the difference, or you can do the old hot rodders trick which is zero lash hydraulic lifters. Either way, it sounds like your oiling system works fine.
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Old 07-19-2008, 02:13 PM
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so what can cause these guys to clammer like they do? or am I mistaking lifter clammer for wrist pin knock? if I pull the rear most lifter out of its bore of course oil BLASTS through the side hole.. thats expected.. but if I go up to the front and pull the front lifter out of its bore I just see a trickle of oil... and this is with al pushrods installed.. and lashed to 3/4 turn and me hand rotating the engine while high speed spinning the oil pump with a good prime rod... it almost seems like the lifters are sitting down too far and partially blocking the oil hole in the bore(meaning the large part of the lifter covers the hole in the bore.. .. but what I read is that all SBC lifters fit the same.. so that im not using an "incorrect height" lifter... when the engine was running i could crank them down to where the cylnder would miss (valve not close all the way) and then back off a bit and it wouldnt clammer but thats adjusted way too tight and couldend up in me damaging something... ive just never had an engine with such a problem.. its got me totally stumped as well as my engine builder...

with all the pushrods in I do see oil coming up through as I hand rotate the engine but not gobs of oil... the one that sprayed on the wall earlier was a fluke.. when its pushrod is in and adjusted it meters oil corectly..

im just at a total loss here.

it sure seems like the oiling system works but the clammer is awfuland i can go 1/4 turn or i can go 2 turns and still have clammer or by turns Ill start having cylinder miss and risk P2V contact..
-Christopher
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Old 07-19-2008, 03:05 PM
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if you use you oil pump primmer long enough it should start oiling the front lifters as well. it took me a while to get my lifters all pumped up with a primming tool.

how long have you let it run?
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Old 07-19-2008, 03:26 PM
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wel lthe root of the problem isnt the oil primer.. its about the fact my lifters have clammered something awful ever since I bought this engine.... im just doing some testing with the oil pump primer tool to try and track down the issue. and making theories about whether ive got enough oil or not... just because my gauge reads 55 doesnt mean I have 55 psi everywhere in the engine... with my testing and also Live runs ive tried many different settings for the lifters.. and also am on the 2nd cam and 3rd set of lifters.. and tried two different kinds of rockers.. and still I get lots of clammer after the engine begins to warm up... if the car sat all night and I started it.. the lifters are quiet for about 5 minutes and then slowly begin to clammer and clatter... thats what im ultimately trying to solve..

the car has been driven close to 1000 miles total..
-Christopher
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Old 07-19-2008, 05:01 PM
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What rocker arms are you using? What shape are the valve stem tips in? The so-called "lifter noise" is rarely from the lifters themselves but from somewhere else in the valvetrain where there is too much clearance.
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Old 07-19-2008, 05:58 PM
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well the engine was built with the comp magnum 1.52 roller tip rocker.. I have also run a long slotted stamped steel rocker arm with no difference in the clattering sound... the valve stem tips appear to be nice and flat.. they dont appear to look worn...

so I still ask the question though why does it run very quiet when it is cold? if the car sat all night and I started it in the morning it will run completely quiet 5 minutes or so then slowly but surely begin to sound like a showing machine and eventually after 20 minutes of idle at say 1200 RPM be real clattery... same as if I drive it only it clatters a bit sooner if i drive it...

I also notice i can "hear" my oil pump bith when I had the engine running and when im drill spinning.. is it normal to hear a HV melling oil pump? I thought at first it was my distributor gear but since it does it when dril spinning i realize its not the dizzy gear.. and the dizzy gear on the cam and on the dizzy show no visible wear pattern....
-Christopher
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Old 07-19-2008, 06:14 PM
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What cam? What lifters? What heads? etc How are you adjusting the valve lash?
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Old 07-19-2008, 07:36 PM
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ok here is the specs of the engine as *I* know it.. from what ive gathered and what the engine builder told me...

block is a 1968 327 2 bolt large journal block outfitted with a 350 rotating assembly(stock cast crank). rods are 5.7 GM X-rods, pistons are speedpro 345NP, although from what I can see there is a 629N stamped on them.

Heads are GM #487 1.94/1.50 with stock type valves and are pocket ported. studs are 3/8 pinned press in studs

first cam (one that wiped on original break in was a crane 113801 with matching springs... (tappets were noisy from the getgo but i expected that since the cam wiped on break in.. (engine builder had told me to use ND-30 walmart oil with no additives.......)

second cam was a Crane Blue racer WG1173k 224/234 @ .050 with a .465/.488 lift.. this cam was similar to the original to engine builder opted not to change springs. tappets were clattery after warm up here....

since oil kept leaking he determined we needed a new crank.. so he replaced the crank / bearings....

during crank replacement I upgraded to the crane blue racer WG1064k cam which is a 234/244 @ .050 with .488/.510 lift and also the matching springs.. the original springs wanted to coil bind wit hthe dampner ..the new springs he measured and said were fine...(tappets were again noisy after warm up)(and still have a rear main seal leak..this is third or 4th seal now?)

because of the noisy tappets, I called crane cams and they indicated my lifters might be variable duration(crane indicated going with new lifters on a used cam ONCE was Ok but no more) so I replaced them with jegs stock replacement lifters..guess what still noisy tappets...

Ok rocker Arms are comp magnum roller tip 1.52 ratio rockers.. the engine builder claimed all along that these were the source of the noise.. so I got a set of long slot stamped steel rockers(1.5) and put in there... and still the same noise.. no change..

Ok how I adjusted them: first passintake manifold OFF)

I went to cylinder number 1 and rotated the engine until I saw the exhaust valve just start to open.. I turned the nut spinning the pushrod for the intake valve between my thumb and index finger until I felt the pushrod get resistance.. I then tightened down 1/2 turn.. next i rotated the engine 90 degrees(my balancer is marked every 45 degrees) and went to cylinder #8 and adjusted its intake valve same way and so on.. so 2 rotations and im done.. rotate until I just see the intake valve begin to close and adjust the exhaust valve.. go 90 degrres etc.. 2 rotations for all 8... put the stud girdles on and intake carb etc back to roll... and yep got clatter after warm up...

while engine was hot pulled valve covers and spark plugs.. and repeated procedure above only use 3/4 turn(intake stayed on.. I didnt loosen anything till i had lined up my first one)... no difference whatsoever other than it seemed quiet right after i started it for about 2 minutes.. engine hadnt cooled all the way down.. but back to noisey clatter again.... I did 1/2 turn, 3/4 turn and 1 turn.. even tried 1/4 turn.. did each of these wit hthe magnum rockers and also the stamped rockers with no audible difference...

I also started hearing another noise like i mentioned above which is my oil pump.. i didnt hear that before.. I still was getting good pressure at the gauge ports in front and back of the motor but could hear the pump gears.. maybe its normal on a melling High volume pump....

oh and somewhere in there a stud broke and thats why the need for a stud girdle.... I marked all the poly locks after i tightened them and they did not back off.. kind of tough for them to move with the stud girdle on it...

oh yeah and still have a oil leak.. that even leaks when just drill spinning the oil pump....
-Christopher
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Old 07-19-2008, 10:57 PM
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rotate until I just see the intake valve begin to close and adjust the exhaust valve.. go 90 degrres etc.. 2 rotations for all 8... put the stud girdles on and intake carb etc back to roll... and yep got clatter after warm up...


I hope you meant to say you rotate the crank around until you see the intake just return to seat (just closes/on seat, lifter down) as opposed to just starting to close.


Wow. I've use all those cams at one point or another and never had a problem with lifter noise.
What happens if you set up the rockers with the motor hot and running?

Possible causes. Excessive lifter bore clearance.. Blocked oil gallery. Incorrect cam bearing install.
Timing chain or gear is hitting the cover or block. Bad oil pump.
One of the cylinder heads pr the block has a blocked coolant passage causing it to run too hot. This won't nessessairly show up on the temp gauge. As the cylinder head heats up it expands which makes the motor effectively taller. Reduces running lifter plunger preload or increases valve lash (solid cam). If the head and or block get too hot the thing will expand enough to create running valve lash.
A running overheated motor tends have valve clatter for this very reason until it cools down.
Possible broken/cracked flywheel/ flex plate and or ring gear welds. Sounds very similar to valve clatter. So does a leaky exhaust collector gasket or cracked header.

Last edited by F-BIRD'88; 07-19-2008 at 11:09 PM.
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Old 07-20-2008, 05:51 AM
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actually I adjusted the exhaust valve when the intake valve just started to close.. since the intake is juts beginning to close I should have my exhaust valve on the base of the cam correct?

and then I adjust the intake valve when I see the exhaust valve just starting to open. again I was thinking id be a stroke or more away from the valve im adjusting either way so it would be close to the base of the cam.

Ive never done a hot running lash.. with the polys and stud girdle i cant run my old "adjusting valve covers" that had holes in them.. and with the comp magnum rockers the oil clips wont fit on so really I and my nice clean engine compartment would have to take a royal oil bath and I just dont want that..

I wouldve thought if i was real far off on my lash that when I went up to a full turn from 0 that id have heard some difference and I got no difference in results.. not even a longer time till it makes noise... its the near exact results whether im at a 1/4 turn or 1 turn.

im going to pull the cam today and see what it looks like as well as the bearings.. ive heard a couple others mention cam bearing installation as a possibility.

the lifter gallery itself does get oil and lots of it.. if I pull the rear most lifter on each side it will bubble lots of oil out of the side hole and when i try to cover it with my finger feels like it is under high pressure (I know not a good test)

the flexplate is new SFI plate... and ive had a cracked plate before.. usually sounded like a rod knock except quiet under power.. this sound im having doesnt change whether im under load or just revving unloaded or just idling...

I do hear it a lot in the oil pan if i crawl under the car.. is that unusual? or am I really hearing wrist pin slap and not valve clatter?

I wouldve ruled out the oil pump since ive got great pressure although I can "hear the gears" in it so i may have a developing oil pump problem.. although since my pressure was up high if I was losing the pump to the point it affected performance id see gauge pressure drop. at least I think i would.

exhaust leaks ive toight of but they are usually louder at cold start... and I dont see any evidence on the gaskets I pulled that there was a leak there.. remember this isnt a "tick-tick-tick" this is a CLatteryclatteryclattery. more like ALL the valvetrain is yelling not just one or two...


I hadnt thought about a "hot head" so to say although id think that wouldnt occur on both heads.. unless the gaskets were installed wrong. ive moved my temp gauge to either side and had pretty much the same results.. within 3 degrees.. but its hard to tell although my variable speed fan does a good job of keeping the engine at one temp in the driveway... I think I'll pull one of the heads and have a look... the nuilder used some kind of tar or something that loves to ooze out of the head and down the side of the block.. wonder if thats a sign of overheating the head?

I pulled a couple main caps and looking at them I have dull spots and real shiny spots on them... I wouldve thought after only 1000 miles I wouldnt see any of this? im not sure what dull spots and shiny spots mean.. no blue color though...

so im gonna hit the ground running wit ha few pointers.. pull a head and see what I got there.. also the timing cover and see if I have evidence of cam walk going on... I'll mic the lifters and their bores as well as check the cam bearings...

thanks for all your ideas so far.. and we WILL get this right
-Christopher
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Old 07-20-2008, 08:23 AM
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Bumpstick on a smooth ride

well looks like I found a good source of Noise.. it appears yet another Bumpstick was on its way to a smooth ride... metal shavings in the bottom of the pan.. I cut the oil filter open and sure enough lots of gray matter in there too... also looked at the Original Lifters that were on this cam and they indeed show lots of wear.. esp the rear 2...

now why this motor likes to wipe cams? im not sure esp when im using joe gibbs break-in oil to break em in.. using recommended springs, and then running Vr-1 oil with ZDDPlus in it id think i have enough protection...

so this block is definately going to the shop for hot tanking and I believe its time to build an F-bird 88!!! only with a hydraulic ROLLER CAM!!! im tired of this flat tappet BS...
-Christopher
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Old 07-20-2008, 10:54 AM
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are the lifters tight in their bores? if they are they might not be spinning. just a thought. sounds like a roller cam is the best way for you to go. i would probably take it to a different shop this time around too.
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Old 07-20-2008, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eldoradoboy
well looks like I found a good source of Noise.. it appears yet another Bumpstick was on its way to a smooth ride... metal shavings in the bottom of the pan.. I cut the oil filter open and sure enough lots of gray matter in there too... also looked at the Original Lifters that were on this cam and they indeed show lots of wear.. esp the rear 2...

now why this motor likes to wipe cams? im not sure esp when im using joe gibbs break-in oil to break em in.. using recommended springs, and then running Vr-1 oil with ZDDPlus in it id think i have enough protection...

so this block is definately going to the shop for hot tanking and I believe its time to build an F-bird 88!!! only with a hydraulic ROLLER CAM!!! im tired of this flat tappet BS...
-Christopher
IMO You have/had an engine assembler problem.
Non det oil? and no additive?
4 rear main seals leaking???

Cam break-in is crucial.
PRE-mix the ZDDP additive with the oil. If you don't it will take minutes for the additive to disperse into all the oil. Pre oil with the oil pump using this mixed oil.
I recommend 5w30 oil for break-in. It gets into the cracks faster when cold. That is the critical time, the first few seconds of running. RIGHT??

You see how little oil actually gets through the lifters and up to the rockers.
Use light weight springs or short rockers. NOT the recommended springs.

The engine must "light off" within 2-3 rounds to prevent wiping the break-in lube from the cam lobes.

Many big name builders are recommending 45-60 minutes of break-in time (appears on CompCams site)
Nitritied cams are worth the money, as are the new flat lifters with oiling holes on the face.

Sure this extra stuff costs money, but so does 3 wiped cams.

Oil pressure on a SBC should be measured at the END of the gallery/system, not at the oil filter.. and needs the "10 per rule" minimum..... Smokey Yunick (rear two lifters, lowest pressure, lowest volume)

Shiney spots on the bearings is metal to metal contact.

Some people will call me a fanatic, but I have NEVER wiped a cam lobe in 40 years. period. Not the last 5 years either. I have personally only put in about 6 this year since I have other things that are more important to take care of, but I insist all be done this way.

JMHO

Last edited by ScoTFrenzel; 07-20-2008 at 12:56 PM.
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Old 07-20-2008, 12:58 PM
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well it appears my lifters are in spec... my lifters measure .842 even and my lifter bores are .8432 which is .0012 or right in spec from what I understand the lifter to bore clearance needs to be...

cam bearings are installed with their oil hole towards the bottom.. is this correct?


but then there are worse problems... I measure the piston to deck at .042 in the hole at TDC.. 4 valve reliefs good for 5cc the head gasket is a .040 and with the 76cc heads.. yeah ive got a great smogger 8.3:1 motor!! might be great for someone with a blower.. except oh yeah the cheapie federal 345NP pistons in it would not handle a blower.. it's surely not the 9.5:1 motor I was supposedly sold... oh the wonders of dishonest people.... and here I thought the thing felt awake.. granted with lots of timing then it wanted to ping out the A** on the high end...

well at least now I can build it right...

so now on to things like do i have to bore it to .040 to change pistons and rings or can it just be honed? is it better to deck down a block or use thinner head gaskets to set up the quench and CR? are keith black hyper- U pistons junk like the engine builder says (yeah right why should I listen to him)...

is a 383 stroker really all that compared to building my 355 up a bit.. to stroke I spend some real coin but are they eternal problems like i have heard they are for street use...

maybe I shouldve put these new questions into a new thread.. and of course this still never solved the rear main seal oil leak... im hoping that the shop can either align hone or can check crank alignment and tell me on that.. or find a better seal that wont be as prone to leak..
-Christopher
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