School me on torque converters - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Transmission - Rearend
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2014, 11:51 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: wisconsin
Posts: 94
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 7 Times in 6 Posts
School me on torque converters

I've been around Hot Rodding since the early 80's and we used to think a 2500 stall convertor was a very loose converter and the absolute limit for a street driven vehicle. Now a days it seems like people are using very high stall torque converters (3000 plus stall) in there everyday driven vehicles without drivability problems. What gives? Has torque converter technology advanced that much more? School me!

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2014, 02:22 PM
gearheadslife's Avatar
MentalMuffinMan
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,379
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 138
Thanked 324 Times in 299 Posts
difference is this and only this

the off the shelf converter, and the built to order converter.. that is 4 times the money.. but works with YOUR COMBO.. not 1500 combo's like the off the shelf one has to try to do..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2014, 02:30 PM
techinspector1's Avatar
Senior Curmudgeon
 
Last wiki edit: DynoSim combinations Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Hemet, California, USA
Age: 72
Posts: 13,334
Wiki Edits: 326

Thanks: 844
Thanked 1,163 Times in 959 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by vpd66 View Post
I've been around Hot Rodding since the early 80's and we used to think a 2500 stall convertor was a very loose converter and the absolute limit for a street driven vehicle. Now a days it seems like people are using very high stall torque converters (3000 plus stall) in there everyday driven vehicles without drivability problems. What gives? Has torque converter technology advanced that much more? School me!
"driveability" does not mean the same thing to all persons. A 2500 stall re-hashed 12" diameter unit does not behave the same as a deliberately built 2500 stall 10" unit.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2014, 04:40 PM
Motochris's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Ridgecrest CA
Posts: 104
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by techinspector1 View Post
"driveability" does not mean the same thing to all persons. A 2500 stall re-hashed 12" diameter unit does not behave the same as a deliberately built 2500 stall 10" unit.
What exactly is the difference in behavior between the two though?
My experience has been that the 10" will flash higher rpm and maybe a bit quicker, but I've had a 12" that did fine for it's purpose as well.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2014, 09:17 PM
prostreet6t9's Avatar
Differential/Driveline
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: oregon
Age: 51
Posts: 1,762
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 9
Thanked 45 Times in 42 Posts
I run a 5500 stall on my car and is just fine driving on the street. Keep in mind it is not a daily driver. When I'm just cruising you would never know the stall was that high. The quality converters are not as "mushy" as the cheaper ones.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to prostreet6t9 For This Useful Post:
Crosley (07-23-2014)
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 07-24-2014, 12:35 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: wisconsin
Posts: 94
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 7 Times in 6 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by gearheadslife View Post
difference is this and only this

the off the shelf converter, and the built to order converter.. that is 4 times the money.. but works with YOUR COMBO.. not 1500 combo's like the off the shelf one has to try to do..
Hmmm, seems to be what I was missing. I wasn't aware there was that much difference between an "off the shelf" torque converter and a custom built one. On a custom built converter can they control how much slippage there is before the stall speed? Would this make a torque converter with a relatively high stall speed more street able?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 07-24-2014, 02:00 AM
ericnova72's Avatar
More for Less Racer
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: S.W. Lower Michigan
Age: 48
Posts: 9,898
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 54
Thanked 634 Times in 564 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by vpd66 View Post
Hmmm, seems to be what I was missing. I wasn't aware there was that much difference between an "off the shelf" torque converter and a custom built one. On a custom built converter can they control how much slippage there is before the stall speed? Would this make a torque converter with a relatively high stall speed more street able?
In a nutshell....YES.

Cheap converters get stall rpm using wide internal clearances and less than ideal internal fin angles for a often incorrect diameter Core(typically too large a core choice), where a true custom converter gets much tighter clearances and more ideal correct fin angles on a proper size converter core.

The "tight" small core custom will be better at everything than a "loose" too large a core off-the-shelf fits-all converter.

Just an example, there was a converter company about 10 years ago caller "GER", had big 2-page yellow and black ads in all the hot rod publications....saw one of their $149 3500 stall "street/strip" converters opened up at my local race trans builders shop...they got the 3500 stall using stock internal parts to a FWD car converter core and pounding 3 fins over flat inside at 4 locations clocked around the inside of the converter at 12, 3, 6, and 9 o'clock, welding a GM spline to the drive hub of the inner turbine, and welding on a GM drive neck...it stalled 3500 rpm all right, and was incredible mushy and generally "slippy" feeling, and had terrible mph at the finish line.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 07-24-2014, 08:50 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: wisconsin
Posts: 94
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 7 Times in 6 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericnova72 View Post
In a nutshell....YES.

Cheap converters get stall rpm using wide internal clearances and less than ideal internal fin angles for a often incorrect diameter Core(typically too large a core choice), where a true custom converter gets much tighter clearances and more ideal correct fin angles on a proper size converter core.

The "tight" small core custom will be better at everything than a "loose" too large a core off-the-shelf fits-all converter.

Just an example, there was a converter company about 10 years ago caller "GER", had big 2-page yellow and black ads in all the hot rod publications....saw one of their $149 3500 stall "street/strip" converters opened up at my local race trans builders shop...they got the 3500 stall using stock internal parts to a FWD car converter core and pounding 3 fins over flat inside at 4 locations clocked around the inside of the converter at 12, 3, 6, and 9 o'clock, welding a GM spline to the drive hub of the inner turbine, and welding on a GM drive neck...it stalled 3500 rpm all right, and was incredible mushy and generally "slippy" feeling, and had terrible mph at the finish line.
You learn things everyday. I guess I was way off the pace on torque converters. What you described sounds just like the off the shelf converters I've used. I'll have to try a custom built one. Whats a good references for a custom converter shop?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 07-24-2014, 09:26 AM
S10xGN's Avatar
Gotta love a turbo!
 

Last journal entry: Body on Frame today.
Last photo:
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Port Neches, TX
Age: 61
Posts: 1,733
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 68 Times in 64 Posts
I can tell you a real world story on the difference between a restalled (to 3000) factory 12" and Precision Industries Vigilante 3400 stall 9.5" converter. The "restall" felt like mush on takeoffs until the engine built some boost, the PI Vig acts completely normal with the exception of needing a small "goose" to get it rolling. The Vig over the restall was worth 0.5 seconds on my 0-60 and 1.3 seconds in the 1/4 mile.

Russ
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 07-24-2014, 11:09 AM
Motochris's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Ridgecrest CA
Posts: 104
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by S10xGN View Post
I can tell you a real world story on the difference between a restalled (to 3000) factory 12" and Precision Industries Vigilante 3400 stall 9.5" converter. The "restall" felt like mush on takeoffs until the engine built some boost, the PI Vig acts completely normal with the exception of needing a small "goose" to get it rolling. The Vig over the restall was worth 0.5 seconds on my 0-60 and 1.3 seconds in the 1/4 mile.

Russ
Wow....that's significant.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 07-24-2014, 11:16 AM
Motochris's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Ridgecrest CA
Posts: 104
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts
So I can see where the custom convertor would make a difference on a serious performance rig...but what about a simple daily driver that just needs more stall? Throwing out the cheapy Ebay kind of convertor...what about an off the shelf TCI or something similar?
I ask, as I need to put a higher stall convertor in my moms 31 roadster. The car is so light it wants to move at idle against the stock convertor that's in it now.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 07-24-2014, 11:27 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: wisconsin
Posts: 94
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 7 Times in 6 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Motochris View Post
So I can see where the custom convertor would make a difference on a serious performance rig...but what about a simple daily driver that just needs more stall? Throwing out the cheapy Ebay kind of convertor...what about an off the shelf TCI or something similar?
I ask, as I need to put a higher stall convertor in my moms 31 roadster. The car is so light it wants to move at idle against the stock convertor that's in it now.
I wouldn't recommend a TCI converter. That was the last converter I bought (2500 stall 10.5" TCI) and it wasn't very street friendly. It was in a turbo 350 with a well built 383. When you foot broke the car it worked great,but normal driving it was just a pain in the a**. Taking off from a stand still sucked it revved to 2500 like you were slipping the clutch every time. Cruising at 35 mph in drive and stepping on the gas made it rev up too. Way to loose.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 07-24-2014, 03:40 PM
ericnova72's Avatar
More for Less Racer
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: S.W. Lower Michigan
Age: 48
Posts: 9,898
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 54
Thanked 634 Times in 564 Posts
I put B&M and TCI in the same boat, not for me. ACC (Alabama Converter Corp i.e. "Boss Hog" converters) is junk.

Hughes seems to be decent for off-the-shelf for street rod guys. Coan shelf stock is ok also. Some of the Jegs brand is Coan in plain boxes.

Custom company's - Coan, ATI, FreakShow Performance, PTC, PAT, Ultimate, Neal Chance, Precision Industries,
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 07-24-2014, 04:39 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 10
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
What about Edge and Circle D?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 07-24-2014, 04:59 PM
Cars, Trucks, Boats
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Toledo, N.W.Ohio, USA
Posts: 1,801
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 5
Thanked 200 Times in 193 Posts
. Another reason modern high stall converters can be street friendly is locking torque converters... a 3500 RPM stall converter may just slip and overheat trying to pull a stiff overdrive 4th gear at 1200 RPMs, but when locked up it acts just like a manual stick shift clutch with no slippage, no heat buildup, and good MPG... which, of course, is why the auto manufacturers went lockup...

. To expand on what the guys said above, a good torque converter does just what its name implies, it multiplies torque 2 - 2.4 times coming off the line... but if all you do is bend the fins over inside to make it slip to a higher stall speed, and ruin its efficiency, torque multiplication may seem closer to 1:1... also, it just keeps majorly slipping at higher RPMs instead of going into 'hydraulic lockup' above the stall RPMs......

Last edited by BuzzLOL; 07-24-2014 at 05:05 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Transmission - Rearend posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
torque converters camarobob63 Transmission - Rearend 2 03-13-2014 07:27 PM
Torque converters ? jeffmc Transmission - Rearend 2 01-18-2014 08:44 AM
Torque Converters RICKY D MCMURRAY Hotrodding Basics 1 08-27-2009 10:24 AM
Torque Converters schuffm Transmission - Rearend 2 10-30-2004 02:21 PM
Torque Converters: Do They Multiply Torque? purple1967camaro Transmission - Rearend 1 04-28-2004 11:41 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:58 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.