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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 01-03-2011, 10:41 PM
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If you covered things like you said, I would not worry about it. Tthe block so that that cylinder is facing down and hose it out with brake cleaner, then an air hose. You'll be fine, it's the guys that don't even realize there is junk left behind and do nothing to stop it that have problems.

On thing not a whole lot of people know is a scotch brite speed secret, involves using it on a newly bored block. Take scotchbrite, wetted in solvent or Gunk engine cleaner and scrub the cylinder walls up and down in each cylinder until you can notice a definate smoother feel through the scotchbrite. This takes all the microscopic sharp points off the surface of the hone job alowing the rings to seal up faster and with less wear. Take you about 1/2 hour to do all eight.

New rings on a new honed cylinder would normally have to rub off all these micro peaks which wears into the rings at the same time.

My uncle taught me this years ago when he was sprint car racing, and I see it is also in David Vizards books.

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Old 01-03-2011, 10:54 PM
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I've used it before and had good success. Although I didn't use 'brand new' sheets of Scotch-brite pads, some that were worn slightly. For a lubricant, I've used fuel-oil and then wiped up/down with laquer thinner, then a VERY thin coating of gear lube (just because stuff like WD-40 evaporates too quickly) to stay in the surface until the piston assy can be installed.

I just picked up a Vortec 350 that had a bad h/g and water poured from 2/4 spark plug holes. Pulled head, cleaned the mating surfaces with my Scotch-brite discs on the end of a diegrinder and cleaned the cyl with an older pad using carb cleaner and air to blow out the residue from the top rings, keeping rags to contain it.

And even had used the flex-hone with HOT soapy water as a lube then the gear lube while the block was still in the car! Just covering the crank with rags and steam pressure after. They ran fine for months with no smoke and good mileage before selling for another project..

I've been amazed with tearing into a engine that I knew ran well (to freshen up) and seeing years of crap either in the lifter valley or rocker area that you would think, HOW THE HECK DID THIS RUN SOO GOOD?.. But it did and did for hundreds of thousands of miles. Its' kinda like the goof that eats and drinks and smokes and parties and seems to live to make your life miserable (who never goes away) and the guy down the street who is a tri-athelete who dies of a heart attack during a race..
To me, that 'little particle' thing doesn't make sense seeing otherwise.

I'd go ahead and do it, just don't go nuts with it.. The crosshatch only is there to hold some oil until the rings seat. Like I stated above, I've torn into motors that the cyls were almost shiny, but the compression was good and didn't burn through the rings..
I know your NO GOOF, Use common sense and save some money.

E
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 01-03-2011, 10:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by recnepswilliams
...I held a shop towel in the bottom of the cylinder when i did it, and i had it sprayed with wd-40...
I've been told by many not to use WD-40 in cylinders, do a search here, here's one example, post #7:

valve lift on genI 350 stock heads...help

The paper towel was a good thought.
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Old 01-03-2011, 11:44 PM
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well, if the cross hatching is just there for the rings to seat i'm guessing they're seated, the motor probably has over 10,000 miles on it now. But it is very clean on the inside and i intend to keep it that way. the first time i took the heads off to put the summit heads on the pistons were still reflective in most places like they were just put in a few months ago

and when vacuuming the cylinders some of the carbon came out and revealed the shiny surface again

what all should i do to get this carbon buildup off of my pistons so it doesn't break loose and score my cylinder walls up?

and tomorrow i'll wipe the wd-40 out and use something else, i never knew that before, but now that i read that post i realized that the things i spray lots of wd-40 on seem to get sludgy after a while
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Old 01-04-2011, 03:37 PM
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I just remembered something As i stated i have used scotchbrite several time and i never did have any problems either. But what i remembered about my friends engine was it wasen't scotchbrite he was using when i told him not to it was while he had the heads off he was cleaning it all up with a wire brush on the end of a drill and i told him not to use that because the little slivers of wire would get down in the engine. And he went ahead and did it anyway and when he called me with his problem we found the little wire pieces in the oil-pump. Sorry about my brain fart. But i have learned and read where they say not to use scotchbrite or anything that can come apart and leave pieces in the engine. But like eric said if you are careful and clean it out you should be ok. I was just stating the what if factor in it all. Just trying to help that's all.


Cole
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Old 01-04-2011, 04:30 PM
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The biggest evil with ScotchBrite is those little 2" bonded cookies used on a mandrel pad on a die grinder. They throw large bits of crap everywhere, and will mess up machined surfaces in a hurry(especially aluminum).
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Old 01-04-2011, 11:55 PM
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does anyone have thoughts on what i should do to prepare the deck for mounting the cylinder heads? i know the deck was machined the first time the engine was put together, the code was machined off, but now i've taken the original head of, and the replacement head, so this is the third time heads will be bolted on.

will this be a problem?
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2011, 01:24 PM
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scotch brite

Tape a piece of 1/2'' copper pipe to a vacumn you don,t like and flatten out the pipe to conform to bore curve (roughly is good enough) and suck up the area around the upper ring. Problem gone.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2011, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericnova72
The biggest evil with ScotchBrite is those little 2" bonded cookies used on a mandrel pad on a die grinder. They throw large bits of crap everywhere, and will mess up machined surfaces in a hurry(especially aluminum).
one of the OEM's (I think it was GM) put out a service bulletin a few years ago that basically said that those were not allowed to be used in their service department at all anymore because they were getting too many claims of damaged engines and other parts from the fall out from them.

As far as the original issue. Stop, don't do anymore. Really, the only way to fix what you've done at this point is to disassemble the whole thing and clean it out. If not, you've definitely shortened the life of the engine, whether it's by a few thousand miles or if it will fail the next few hundred miles depends on how much work you did.

Not sure about the WD40 thing, will read the thread later, but in general, my lube of choice to prevent and to clean up minor rust is ATF (any reasonable amount from sitting around for a couple of days you should be able to wipe off with a cloth soaked in the stuff). Steel wool is probably much safer, and some good, high quality emery type sand papers are somewhat better (something that fractures as you use it like garnet paper is the same or worse than the scothbright), but you really want to avoid using any kind of an abrasive in an engine.
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Old 01-05-2011, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by recnepswilliams
does anyone have thoughts on what i should do to prepare the deck for mounting the cylinder heads? i know the deck was machined the first time the engine was put together, the code was machined off, but now i've taken the original head of, and the replacement head, so this is the third time heads will be bolted on.

will this be a problem?
If you don't have any gasket residue to deal with contact cleaner works well. If you have gasket residue I would simply manually scrape off anything that you can catch a fingernail on, don't worry about "gasket fingerprinting" which is essentially dye from the gasket that has absorbed into the steels porous upper surface...usually the contact cleaner will take care of it but if its not a deposit don't worry about it.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 01-06-2011, 09:46 AM
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For deck 'clean-up' just get a little box of straight razors and push the edge (away from you, NOT toward you) with minimum pressure. The edge will curl under before any 'digging in' of the cast iron. (Just be VERY CAREFUL on aluminum blocks/heads) Just keep the angle pretty low. Not more than 20deg.
the thin blade will bend some versus a big, thick gasket scraper or sharpened putty knife that just loves to dig in JUST when you don't want them to.

Remember that where the 'fire ring' around the H/G does the sealing of the cyl pressuer. Depending on the blocks/head condition, you may have pitting of the surface from the coolant over time. If this pitting can be detected where it would be under that fire ring, have it decked.
Now, that would entail taking the whole engine apart and delivering it to a shop etc.. Then one has to make sure they have the same deck hight on both sides. That would be a crapper, that one side is lower than the other..

I've used the little wire wheels/grinders many times throughout the decades and a neat little trick is to use a can of cheap shave-cream to fill up everything from intake ports to stud holes (Did you ever use a blow nozzle to clean out a clogged EGR passage, and all that carbon just BLOWS EVERYWHERE!! Yeah, you thought that you were smart!! )

After the porting/cleaning/repair you can just suck it out with a shop-vac with all the debris (well, most. the rest a rag can usually handle)
Now I don't think that Joe Gibbs racing would use it but when times are tough... There usually isn't much residue at all left over.
Which brings me to another area. Cleaning the Head stud/bolt holes. A pistol cleaning kit/rod for say a 40cal. on a cordless drill and some brake clean usually will get all that sealer/anti-seize out. Semi-hardening material usually takes a little more effort (products like Lock-tite will be best removed by a bottoming tap, and then the cleaning process) The 'wire' is usually a brass or bronze, and the wires themselves are alot longer so they tend to bend over rather break off (jsut as long as you don't change direction all the time)
I'd hate for you to get it all nice looking and have a couple head bolts not torque down enough because of a little crap in the hole NOBODY LIKES CRAP IN THE HOLE.
In addition, the dead holes are one thing, the 'through' holes will just drop the sealer down into the block. If and I know sometimes one can't but after most everything is bolted up for the coolant, run some water (NOT A HOSE) through the block/heads/intake with the drain plugs out in the middle of the block by the pan-rail to get some of the floating sealer bits out. You don't want to clog any radiator passages with it, overheat and blame it on the job you just did.. Radiator flush doesn't break that silicone sealer down. It just floats around.
Now You could start the bore brush at the bottom first and come back up with the threads. That way all/most the 'stuff' will end up on the deck that can be easily wiped/blown off.

And not knocking the others but, the top ring only has a gap of usually .012-.018+, so I'd doubt that lots of crap got down past them. It's what gets in between the ring lands. But about 120-180psi of compressed air should work.

(It's the extended running of a bad tune that builds up carbon soot mixed with other contaminants that will build up behind the rings and slowly force them out and over time, wearing the cyl walls uneven like a reverse hour-glass.
BUT that's a different thread..

I got confidence in ya.. I think you'll be fine. Just take your time and go over things, even take a buddy too! (leave the beer for after though)

E
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 01-06-2011, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericnova72
If you covered things like you said, I would not worry about it. Tthe block so that that cylinder is facing down and hose it out with brake cleaner, then an air hose. You'll be fine, it's the guys that don't even realize there is junk left behind and do nothing to stop it that have problems.

On thing not a whole lot of people know is a scotch brite speed secret, involves using it on a newly bored block. Take scotchbrite, wetted in solvent or Gunk engine cleaner and scrub the cylinder walls up and down in each cylinder until you can notice a definate smoother feel through the scotchbrite. This takes all the microscopic sharp points off the surface of the hone job alowing the rings to seal up faster and with less wear. Take you about 1/2 hour to do all eight.

New rings on a new honed cylinder would normally have to rub off all these micro peaks which wears into the rings at the same time.

My uncle taught me this years ago when he was sprint car racing, and I see it is also in David Vizards books.
Plateau honing with a brush hone does that job properly. The Scotchbrite trick was a hack back then and still is now. Any of my customers get a bright idea like that get invisible to me. ScotchBrite and David Lizard's books belong in the trash.

tom
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 01-07-2011, 12:16 AM
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Thanks for all the input. I think i have everything all cleaned up

I vacuumed it with the shop vac and then wiped the cylinders out the best that i could, then i blew around the rings with 130psi and caught it in another rag, then i wiped the cylinders again, then i turned the engine over a few times and watched for anything to get left behind out of the rings as the pistons travel down.

nothing seemed to score the cylinder walls and nothing came out of the rings all of the gasket seemed to come right off of the deck, so everything should come together just how i want it to.

I even managed to squeeze new motor mounts under the engine with it in the car, with all the cuts on my hand to prove it lol
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Old 01-08-2011, 09:25 PM
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Hey, just thought of it.. You need to lube the cyl a little after. I like to use a little gear lube. Just a finger full, to wipe around the cyl.
Remember, the surface is lubed (somewhat) 'under' the rings and you've just done a nice job cleaning the upper cyl, so just give a slight wipe with it.

Ya don't want to shove the piston up a cyl without lube.
If you already have the heads on again, just squirt some pennetrating oil in the spark plug hole and let it seep around or manually turn it over by hand. The oil will follow the rings around the cyl.
It might smoke a little at first but that should clear up after warmup.

E
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Old 01-09-2011, 09:07 PM
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I had some leftover new motor oil so i dumped it on a rag and wiped each cylinder with it, then i turned it over a few times. I already learned my lesson about rust lol
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