[Kurt]

I'm considering a Scotts Hotrods front suspension as a alternative to the Must. 11 stuff. Anybody use one or have info about how they work, etc. especialy how they hold up in real life useage? I drive my cars alot, and I drive them hard. The thread on must. susp. failure has me a little freaked out. I hate the look of strut rods, so I'm not real keen about using them, plus the system imo is too narrow. {54 Ford pu.}

[56f100]

I don't know anything about the Scott's IFS kits, but I am fond of the Heidts IFS, after quite a bit of research I became afraid of the Fat guy, and just wasn't all that fond of the TCI kit. For the most part you pretty much get what you pay for. just do lots of research on it, this is a good place to start. good luck

[Centerline]

You have to remember that there are thousands of Mustang II IFS systems out there on everything from all out drag racers to street rods. A few, and I do mean a very small number, have had problems and in my opinion and the opinion of some other pretty knowledgeable people its apparent that most of those were caused by the elimination of the strut rods. There have been very few cases of actual failures caused by anything else so being "freaked out" is a gigantic over reaction.

On your truck, or any vehicle that is full fendered, you would never see the strut rods unless you crawl underneath and look for them. Heidts makes very good quality parts as do many other manufacturers out there and if the strut rods are used they are very safe indeed.

[Deuce]

This Pinto/Mustang II question is the most debated and discussed topic in this section ( Suspension-Brakes-Steering )....


Like Centerline said..........there are a lot of them out there.....
Some were installed by folks who have no business working on a car.....
Some kits are better than others......

I.....believe that the Pinto/Mustang II is too light duty...for a real truck....for a truck/street toy.....maybe..... I know of a few under rods that are WAY TOO HEAVY ...for a compact car front suspension....that is over 20 years old. 1935 Buicks, big 30's Nashes, Packards and such are too heavy IMHO for a light duty compact car front end. Anything over that weighs over 3000 lbs.....should have something a little stronger.....

There is a fellow in Arizona I believe who has a kit for the Dakota front end for F-100s.......

Disclaimer.........the above is just my OPINION....! !

DEUCE.........Moderator

[Kurt]

Thanks for the input so far. I am pretty familiar with the Must 11 setup. I've ruled out using it with the strut rods, since i don't like the way it looks, and strut rod eliminators seem to be dangerous on heavy, driven vehicles. Add to that the fact I hate the look of tires way in the fenderwell making it look like the truck is going to fall over, and I need something else. Scotts seems like a good alternative, but I'm not sure about dropping 2500 on something that I haven't talked to someone about.

[solidaxel]

Have you looked into the Mopar torsion rod set ups, not the Valarie but the other one that has the parallel bars

[Kurt]

No not yet. I was hoping to avoid a complete subframe swap, but I'm not opposed to it if thats my best option. At that point I'd probably go with the camaro clip, mainly because I'm a chev guy, and the Z28 has a great steering ratio. Also I'm debating airide.

[poncho62]

I used a Nova clip on my 51 Ford PU..............worked great, was cheap.....

I did it about 12 years ago, towed a 19ft house trailer 1000s of miles, from here to Indy and another time to the East coast.

I agree with deuce that the M11 setup is too light for a truck, especially if its used to tow or carry stuff.

[solidaxel]

The Mopar torsion bar set up that we have used is NOT the Volarie it is a cross member and torsion bar. They are made for the F-100 and work great without cutting the frame.

[farna]

Look at the suspensions used in some of the bigger cars -- not exactly stronger than a Mustang II. Look at 60s Ford Fairlanes, for instance. Big motors, almost the same as MII (strut rod is in tension, not compression). AMC used basically the same strut rod type suspension as the MII on all it's big cars through 78 (last full size made) with 401 V-8s. No suspension problems. As long as the arms are made of heavy enough material, the MII is strong enough for anything.

The problem the sticky refers to is mainly for those converting from standard MII to an arm designed to eliminate the strut rod. In a nut shell the cross member has to be designed to take that kind of stress or you could have problems. If you get one of the current systems (like Fat Man's or Heidt's) that are DESIGNED for no strut rods, the first thing you'll note is the cross member is wider and made of thicker material. The only strut rod eliminating kit I'd consider with a standard MII type cross member is the one that bolts in place of a strut rod and has a weld on pivot point instead of the standard type bushings. That places no additional stress on the corss member. The MII cross member is designed for a single mount point in the center of it, there are no twisting forces when you hit a pot hole -- all the shock is absorbed by the strut rod bushings. Get rid of them and that shock and load is transferred to the cross member, which isn't designed for it. The cross member must be redesigned to take that kind of load (and has been for many aftermarket kits), and must be heavier. So you lose some of the elegance of the MII suspension design -- light weight.

[xntrik]

Originally Posted by Kurt

No not yet. I was hoping to avoid a complete subframe swap, but I'm not opposed to it if thats my best option. At that point I'd probably go with the camaro clip, mainly because I'm a chev guy, and the Z28 has a great steering ratio. Also I'm debating airide.

But the stock geometry is horrible.

You sure wouldn't want to put air ride into it. YIKES

[xntrik]

Originally Posted by farna

Look at the suspensions used in some of the bigger cars -- not exactly stronger than a Mustang II. Look at 60s Ford Fairlanes, for instance. Big motors, almost the same as MII (strut rod is in tension, not compression). AMC used basically the same strut rod type suspension as the MII on all it's big cars through 78 (last full size made) with 401 V-8s. No suspension problems. As long as the arms are made of heavy enough material, the MII is strong enough for anything.

The problem the sticky refers to is mainly for those converting from standard MII to an arm designed to eliminate the strut rod. In a nut shell the cross member has to be designed to take that kind of stress or you could have problems. If you get one of the current systems (like Fat Man's or Heidt's) that are DESIGNED for no strut rods, the first thing you'll note is the cross member is wider and made of thicker material. The only strut rod eliminating kit I'd consider with a standard MII type cross member is the one that bolts in place of a strut rod and has a weld on pivot point instead of the standard type bushings. That places no additional stress on the corss member. The MII cross member is designed for a single mount point in the center of it, there are no twisting forces when you hit a pot hole -- all the shock is absorbed by the strut rod bushings. Get rid of them and that shock and load is transferred to the cross member, which isn't designed for it. The cross member must be redesigned to take that kind of load (and has been for many aftermarket kits), and must be heavier. So you lose some of the elegance of the MII suspension design -- light weight.

Absolutely.
Example: The 60 Falcon 144 cu in used the same design as the 70 Torino Cobra Jet..... but the Torino stuff is MUCH HEAVIER STEEL. They have the coil on the upper arm. A design from the mid 50s.

The geometry of the original Pinto/MII is excellent. Falcons/Fairlanes... nawt so good- mid 50s.

The Pinto/MII has the coil on the lower control arm. The original design was to hold up 1600 pound (gross weight) front end and absorb the road shock.

IMO. Eliminating the strut rod? Unless it is an actual lower A-frame and structure designed for it, I don't think they are strong enough.

Oh ya, and if you widen the tread on a MII correctly, the ackerman is still 10 times better than a Camaro clip.

[Kurt]

Give me a poor geometry???? Camaro over a Mustang any day of the week. I don't know much about ackerman principle or geometry, but I know when a car rides and handles well. I've had a few Camaro subframe vehicles, and driven a few Must 11 susp. vehicles. I can't comment on the light street rods, but in a full size car or truck, I personally wouldn't ever trade the Camaro for the Must. I'd put my 56 ford with the Camaro clip on the road coarse against a Must. equiped one any day. I agree with you on the falcon, I just parked my 60 with a 91 efi 5.0L and aod trans cause I could handle the bump steer anymore. I'll probably do the Must 11 conversion on that one, just because of the size of vehicle. I understand alot of guys are really into this setup, but on a full size truck I'm not going to consider it. They are too narrow imo, and put the tires too far in in the fenders,and as I said I don't like the look of strut rods, don't know why, they just bug me. If you widen the track, you will introduce bump steer unless you also change to the correct size rack and pinion. The relationship between the control arms and the tie rods is critical. Thats part of what makes the falcon suspension dangerous. As the suspension moves, the wheel turns, so if one wheel moves more than the other the entire car moves left, or sometimes right. Lots of fun. I'd be interested in more info on the torsion setup. I've seen them, but never driven one. Sorry for the rant.

[Don Meyer]

One other to consider is the G-body cars. They are the same design as the Camaro but, 3" narrower. I have installed many of these & ave always been impressed w/the driveability. With F40 springs they handle better w/o the mushy ride.

Don

[xntrik]

Why not just fix the bump steer on the Falcon? It is easy and inexpensive. (or did you put some ridiculous rack and pinion on it?)

In defense of the Falcon.... take a look at all the Chevy II and Novas and Chevelles do wheelies at the drags. Did you watch when the front end comes back down from a wheelie? Wonder why they dart around? Watch the toe in/camber change and the "shudder" the front wheels go through.

I like the Mustang eleven front end... but it must be sized for the vehicle, that means bumpsteer and all. Just because some idiot puts a screwed up mess into his rig doesn't mean the overall design is poor.

As to the 2nd gen Camaro....I guess GM did that to make them understeer..... did you ever watch the camber gain and ackerman when you turn sharp?.....If you don't mind your tires squeeling in the parking lot and your tires heeling over in turns.... just do it.