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Old 05-10-2009, 11:54 PM
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Self Etching primer vs. epoxy primer

Okay i know this has been talked about so many times but I'm not sure what is right for me.

I am wanting to paint my car a hot rod black (flat black) single stage. I need to take it down to bare metal for body work and rust repair.

What im confused on is whats better???

Epoxy then paint
OR
Self etching then paint
OR
Self etching then epoxy then paint

Im new to paint so please explain things in details thank you

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Old 05-11-2009, 11:19 AM
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Well first off, if some of the people were here that used to visit this forum there would be a name calling heated argument on this question. There is a SERIOUS difference of opinion on the subject.

First off, the etch primer is part of most every lifetime warrenty from the paint companies. So YES, it is a part of a good system.

However, some etches have some strict recoat requirements that add a spin. Also, some etches are simply not very good.

To spray a quality epoxy over bare metal is fine and some manufacturers recommend AGAINST using an etch prior to their epoxy.

One thing I can say is to do one panel at a time and don't get overwhelmed with a bare metal car.

Either way, if you followed the manufacturers recommendations in the tech sheet you are going to be good.

Brian
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Old 05-11-2009, 03:05 PM
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elcaminodragster,
Just so you know, I'm not a professional painter. I've been confused by this question as well and through trial and error and a lot of questions, I have boiled it down to this.
1. Media blast.
2. Clean with PRE or Lacquer Thinner.
3. Shoot Epoxy Primer.
4. Filler if necessary.
5. Add another coat of Epoxy Primer because you probably sanded off some of the epoxy to level that dent in step #4.
6. Lightly block sand with 320 or so.
7. Spray 2K Urethane primer over that for fine block sanding. Just use one system/brand if possible. I'm using Nason by Dupont simply because its available at the local auto paint store. Probably better out there, but it works.
I haven't gone beyond this point yet. Oh, if you blast some metal and don't get around to spraying it with epoxy and it flash rusts, I've used a little Phosphoric Acid to get rid of it. Spray on a rag and wipe fast, don't let it dry on the metal. Then wash again with PRE or Lacquer Thinner, then start at #3. Just keep water off the metal! I've tried these metal washes and though I might be doing it wrong, it flash rusts in front of my eyes! Maybe its the Florida humidity.

Now get ready for people to start disagreeing with me. Bring it on! I might learn some more! Ha!

Michael
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Old 05-11-2009, 04:00 PM
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So far, what they said - especially the not a painter part. I have a little over half of mine to bare metal, and when I'm done stripping, doing the metal work etc, I am going to use epoxy, filler, epoxy. Then it can sit in the garage for however long it takes. Way things are, looking like a long time. I'm a bit of a fanatic too so it will probably take even longer. I just like everything I have seen and heard of epoxy stead of etch. But then what do I know???
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Old 05-12-2009, 07:17 AM
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Before I knew about epoxy I used Nasons Etch Primer then sprayed 2k Urethane over that. I did this on my bedsides and one rear fender. They have been sitting around for 3.5 years and they still look great. I want to shoot a coat of epoxy to seal it but I will have to do some research to find out if this is recommended. I do wish I had known about the epoxy when I first purchased the bedsides though. Since then, I've used epoxy on my frame, front fenders, Cab, and all parts going forward. Great stuff.

Here is a great article on painting, I try to follow it as closely as possible, just using Nasons. Just read it again and it looks like reduced epoxy over 2k will act as a sealer. So I will do that on my bedsides.

The Perfect Paint Job

Good luck!
Michael
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Old 05-12-2009, 10:54 AM
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Never clean with lacquer thinner, that's a no-no.
I know, people do it all the time, I did too, for years,
then one day that was what caused a problem.
Lacquer thinner DOES leave traces.
Use wax and grease remover.
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Old 05-12-2009, 11:15 AM
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Ok, no more Lacquer Thinner. Is there something else that can be purchased at Home Depot that will work? I usually use PRE but it is expensive and you have to pay shipping on top of that! Then I found some wax and grease remover from an auto parts store, but I doubt its as good as PRE.

What problems did you have? I have used Lacquer Thinner quite a bit to clean stuff. I would hate to think about sanding everything back down to metal again!

Michael
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Old 05-12-2009, 12:01 PM
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The main problem with lacquer thinner is that it dries too fast. A good wax and grease remover needs to stay wet on the surface long enough for floating contaminants to be picked up by a subsequent clean wipe.

Another problem with lacquer thinner is it can melt some substrates. Even ones that do not show signs of melting may be softened enough for contaminants to penetrate the surface.

Also, lacquer thinner is not what it used to be. I've heard of some containing impurities. Once in a great while we need an extra strong solvent to clean something nasty off a panel, even then we will use reducer, not thinner.

It's really best to use a product designed for the job. Most towns will have at least one source of professional refinish products, if not, there is always mail order. SPI sends stuff out with little or no shipping cost. They have two types of wax and grease remover that work well.
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Old 05-12-2009, 12:22 PM
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Here's a question for you. Let's say I cleaned a freshly media blasted fender with Lacquer Thinner, wiped it dry and sprayed it with epoxy. How long do you think it would take until a problem showed up? And what might the problem be? Reason is, I have had this fender laying around for a year and there doesn't seem to be blistering or adhesion problems. Should I still sand it back down to metal or do you think I got lucky? Of course I'm not defending Lacquer Thinner, I'm just trying to figure out if I need to redo months of work?

Sorry if I hijacked this thread elcaminodragster!
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Old 05-12-2009, 12:32 PM
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What about a good wipe down with acetone??? I've even been told use a very very damp cloth (pretty much dry) wipe clean then use acetone twice to get it really clean.

I mean acetone leaves behind nothing right??? No residue or anything am I correct???
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Old 05-12-2009, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jomichael
Here's a question for you. Let's say I cleaned a freshly media blasted fender with Lacquer Thinner, wiped it dry and sprayed it with epoxy. How long do you think it would take until a problem showed up? And what might the problem be? Reason is, I have had this fender laying around for a year and there doesn't seem to be blistering or adhesion problems. Should I still sand it back down to metal or do you think I got lucky? Of course I'm not defending Lacquer Thinner, I'm just trying to figure out if I need to redo months of work?

Sorry if I hijacked this thread elcaminodragster!

I think of lacquer thinner as just that a THINNER its not a cleaner in my mind. It leaves behind residue and its almost (for lack of a better word) like a really thin oil. I've never used it to clean anything even when things tell me to.

But Im no painter.
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Old 05-12-2009, 03:00 PM
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I've used Acetone as well, but it dries even faster. Luckily, I switched to Total Prep by Mar-Hyde and PRE a year ago. But I do have to look back and decide if I should sand down the parts I did clean with Lacquer Thinner. I think it was one rear fender and a few smaller parts. Lesson learned! At least I haven't sprayed the base/clear yet! Got a lot of body work before that happens.

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Old 05-12-2009, 03:28 PM
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here we go again,but I'm still here so heres the facts as 35yrs exp proves it.Etching primer sucks,its mostly acid being sprayed in the air very unwise and unhealthy for any one around,unless you have a booth.I use OSPHO ,only,I scrub it in and it etches the metal extremly well,it also gives a protective coating that wont alow surface rust for months,then I use epoxy primer(I prefer SPI)If you really want your work to last PM me I'll walk you through it like I said I 've used it for years and I'l swear by it I wont respond to this post again just contact me if your interested in quality work and like getting the most out of your money as I do at my resto shop. Mike O.
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Old 05-12-2009, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elcaminodragster
What about a good wipe down with acetone??? I've even been told use a very very damp cloth (pretty much dry) wipe clean then use acetone twice to get it really clean.

I mean acetone leaves behind nothing right??? No residue or anything am I correct???
If you can get pure acetone, generally acetone available in hardware stores is a cocktail of varying solvents.

Vince
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Old 05-12-2009, 05:34 PM
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The acetone I have is pretty good stuff. I've used it to clean small parts before I prime and paint with no problems, cleans really good.

Well Ive bought the epoxy primer. I've got a lot of work ahead of me. Thank you for the help on picking a primer. I greatly appreciate it as always!

Last edited by elcaminodragster; 05-12-2009 at 05:37 PM. Reason: added buying the paint
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