serpentine belt water pump direction? - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Engine
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 04-12-2008, 08:09 PM
trucks_chevrolet's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 7
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
serpentine belt water pump direction?

Hello,

I am thinking about building a serpetine belt drive system for an old GMC big V6 using parts from a chevy small block. The problem is the reverse rotation water pump... Did any of the serpentine drive systems use a regular water pump? If anybody is asking why, basicly to mess with peoples mind. I am already working on installing a TBI fuel injection system and with the Serpentine belt drive a lot of people will be doing some head scratching. I already have a hard time convincing people that a 305 is not a 80's small block but a 60's GMC V6 engine. So I thought why not go ahead and really confuse em. By the way this is in a 65 Suburban

Darrell

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 04-13-2008, 12:42 AM
techinspector1's Avatar
Senior Curmudgeon
 
Last wiki edit: DynoSim combinations Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Hemet, California, USA
Age: 72
Posts: 12,612
Wiki Edits: 326

Thanks: 703
Thanked 896 Times in 762 Posts
My first thought is that if a guy has the ability to put EFI and a serpentine system on a V6, then he ought to have the ability to adapt a Chevy water pump.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 04-13-2008, 03:57 AM
curtis73's Avatar
Hates: Liver. Loves: Diesel
 
Last wiki edit: How to find cheap parts
Last journal entry: 1999-2001: Getting it on the road
Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Age: 40
Posts: 5,128
Wiki Edits: 16

Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
All factory GM serpentine belts are reverse rotation at the water pump
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 04-13-2008, 07:29 AM
Holder350's Avatar
Auto Parts Professional
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Whitesburg, TN
Posts: 1,037
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
not ALL serp pumps are reverse rotation IIRC

If the car has a slotted (groved) WP pulley its standard rotation.


Check out THIS thread. DoubleVision has some realy good advise, and some great pics in that thread to!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 04-13-2008, 07:39 AM
Registered User
 
Last wiki edit: Wheelbase database Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 3,519
Wiki Edits: 1

Thanks: 6
Thanked 146 Times in 133 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holder350
not ALL serp pumps are reverse rotation IIRC..
Actually, all factory serpentine systems do use reverse rotation water pumps. This is done to ensure you have enough engagement of the belt on the pulley to turn the pump. Aftermarket serpentine kits are made for engines for which a reverse rotation pump was never available (such as Pontiacs or FE series Ford motors). To ensure adequate belt engagement on the water pump, these kits use a gazillion (OK, it's really more like three...) idler pulleys to force the belt into engagement.

It makes you wonder if all that extra clap-trap and complexity is a net benefit or not.

Last edited by joe_padavano; 04-13-2008 at 07:39 AM. Reason: spelling
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 04-13-2008, 07:59 AM
Holder350's Avatar
Auto Parts Professional
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Whitesburg, TN
Posts: 1,037
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post


Some ford and Lincoln systems were standard rotation for sure.

However they didn't have the nice auto adjusters that we're all use to.

Far left pulley is the WP pulley.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 04-13-2008, 09:06 AM
woodz428's Avatar
Troll Hunter
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Philo,Il
Posts: 2,702
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
[QUOTE=Holder350]

Some ford and Lincoln systems were standard rotation for sure.

However they didn't have the nice auto adjusters that we're all use to.

Far left pulley is the WP pulley.
[QUOTE]
Are those from an engine with a single belt?? The term serpentine usually applies to a single belt on all the accessories. That system looks like the one on an early 80s 302 that had more than one belt. I had an early 80s 302 in a rod for a while and it used at least 2 belts and did have a regular rotation water pump. I think of the single belt systems as serpentine. Some used the grooved belts, like a serpentine system, but had multiple belts. They are just using a grooved belt but don't actually fit into the definition of serpentine as it is generally used.
I see the crank pulley has at least two grooves and I see 2 V belts in the upper picture so I don't believe what you refer to is a serpentine belt, it just uses a grooved belt as one of the belts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 04-13-2008, 09:17 AM
Holder350's Avatar
Auto Parts Professional
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Whitesburg, TN
Posts: 1,037
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
no it is a multi belt system.

But it is a high tension serpentine type system.

Serpentine by definition is
Quote:
An accessory drive belt, with small multiple v-ribs, routed around most or all of the engine-powered accessories.
Thats what I think of when someone says serpentine.

However IIRC there are no SINGLE belt standard rotation systems.

May be a matter of opinion on the Definition.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 04-13-2008, 10:43 AM
trucks_chevrolet's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 7
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Hello,

The reason for looking for a standard rotation system is simple. Yes I could tear the pump apart build a new impeller and make it work in reverse. Then on a road trip pump goes out in middle of the night, unless I build two and haul one everywhere I go I'm stuck. Big 6 parts are not the easiest to locate anyway and I would prefer not to have a modified version of an already hard to find part on a truck I plan to drive a lot. I will have to modify or make brackets to make this work, and the water pump may turn this into a pipe dream.

Darrell
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 04-13-2008, 12:03 PM
Registered User
 
Last wiki edit: Wheelbase database Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 3,519
Wiki Edits: 1

Thanks: 6
Thanked 146 Times in 133 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holder350
...it is a multi belt system.

But it is a high tension serpentine type system.

...However IIRC there are no SINGLE belt standard rotation systems.
May be a matter of opinion on the Definition.
There are standard rotation systems that use multiple flat ribbed belts in place of V-belts. These are pretty much identical to V-belt systems except for the cross section of the belt. Some people call these "serpentine" systems, but I disagree. The term "serpentine" comes from serpent, meaning snake, which is what the belt looks like when it makes the S-shaped turn around the reverse rotation water pump.

Note the first two definitions from Websters:

ser·pen·tine /ˈsɜrpənˌtin, -ˌtaɪn/adjective, noun, verb, -tined, -tin·ing.
–adjective
1. of, characteristic of, or resembling a serpent, as in form or movement.
2. having a winding course, as a road; sinuous.

The flat, multi-belt systems neither resemble a serpent nor do they have a winding course.

By the way, one of the advantages of true single belt serpentine systems is that they are NOT "high tension". Belt drive systems transfer power with friction only, and the friction-limited power transmission to the pulley is governed by the contact area of the belt in the pulley, the circumferential engagement distance of the belt in the pulley, and the tension in the belt. One big advantage of a true serpentine system is that the flat multi-rib belt and the long S-turn around the crank and water pump pulleys increase the first two factors. This allows the tension to actually be LOWER for the same power transmission capability, which increases bearing life in the water pump and accessories (as well as decreasing parasitic HP losses).

Quote:
Originally Posted by trucks_chevrolet
The reason for looking for a standard rotation system is simple.
Yeah, I think we all understand that.

Quote:
Yes I could tear the pump apart build a new impeller and make it work in reverse.
Actually, no, you probably can't. Not only is the impeller different, but the internal shape of the pump housing would need to be a mirror image for it to work correctly.

Quote:
Then on a road trip pump goes out in middle of the night, unless I build two and haul one everywhere I go I'm stuck. Big 6 parts are not the easiest to locate anyway and I would prefer not to have a modified version of an already hard to find part on a truck I plan to drive a lot.
I would guess that your chances of finding a STOCK pump for your GMC V6 from a normal auto parts store would be close to zero anyway. I think the suggestion of adapting a newer model reverse rotation pump solves both problems. You get the pump configuration you need for the serpentine drive and you get a much more common water pump.


Quote:
I will have to modify or make brackets to make this work, and the water pump may turn this into a pipe dream.
Since you want to have a reliable driver (and I applaud that), why screw with hand-made brackets and pulleys anyway?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 04-13-2008, 06:46 PM
Mustangsaly's Avatar
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 1,071
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
GM 4.3s and 5.0 & 5.7s the serpentine belt systems turned the water pump shaft in reverse, but the water pump pumped the water in the standard direction.




heres a serpentine belt system A/C by pass Pulley
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...2BSI%26otn%3D4
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 04-13-2008, 06:59 PM
curtis73's Avatar
Hates: Liver. Loves: Diesel
 
Last wiki edit: How to find cheap parts
Last journal entry: 1999-2001: Getting it on the road
Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Age: 40
Posts: 5,128
Wiki Edits: 16

Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
You could buy two pumps and modify both. Carry the spare.

Another thought... Were those ever used in marine applications? If so, chances are there are marine water pumps available. Marine water pumps don't have any angle on the fins of the impeller. They work equally in both directions.

Having said that... they suck at flowing water. They're designed to create supplemental circulation in a marine block that already has a separate water pump in the outdrive. But, if your V6 isn't too hi-po, it might be adequate.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 04-14-2008, 08:00 AM
Registered User
 
Last wiki edit: Wheelbase database Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 3,519
Wiki Edits: 1

Thanks: 6
Thanked 146 Times in 133 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustangsaly
GM 4.3s and 5.0 & 5.7s the serpentine belt systems turned the water pump shaft in reverse, but the water pump pumped the water in the standard direction...
Not sure what your point is. Do not confuse "reverse rotation", where the pump is turning in the opposite direction, with "reverse coolant flow", as used on some of the SBC LT1 motors. That's a completely different and unrelated issue.

If you look at the inside of a water pump, not only are the vanes (usually) angled for a specific rotation direction, but also the internal shape of the casting is designed for that rotation direction as well. Reversing the direction of the impeller usually requires the casting to be changed to match.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 04-14-2008, 10:00 PM
Member
 
Last wiki edit: Calculating tire size
Last journal entry: Changes...
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Montreal
Age: 29
Posts: 532
Wiki Edits: 2

Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
This thread seems to be going in a lot of different directions at once. I want to comment on the SBC water pump topic, there does exist a standard rotation water pump setup with a serpentine type belt. I have seen it in person on a canadian '86 cutlass with a 305 engine. It had a serpentine belt going around the crank, water pump and alternator, and a v-belt for power steering. There was no tensioner, and it used the old-style alternator bracket to get the belt tight, and the regular water pump.

Here's some pictures of a pair of pulleys I have lying around that I think are the ones I'm talking about.


Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 04-15-2008, 06:43 AM
woodz428's Avatar
Troll Hunter
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Philo,Il
Posts: 2,702
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Once again the use of 2 belts pretty much removes it from the common usage of "serpentine" Serpentine belts are single belts that drive ALL accesories. What you have there is much like the early Ford transition belts, but not what is known as a serpentine belt. I looked at some early manuals on the 302 from the 80s and they weren't referred to by Ford as serpentine, it was ribbed and V-belt drives.Virtually every serpentine belt system will drive off both sides of the belt, that one doesn't.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Engine posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Big block water pump on small block! TVR383 Engine 14 04-15-2008 07:43 AM
water pump problem rakundig Engine 15 08-10-2007 09:15 AM
SBC 'Short' Water Pump vs Corvette Pump ezobens Engine 4 03-20-2006 10:36 AM
SB 400 water pump HELP brokenT-A Engine 4 10-08-2004 06:16 PM
Lean backfire Camaro76 Engine 5 04-15-2003 05:45 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:12 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.