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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 09-03-2010, 11:13 AM
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33 Pontiac 3W Sport Coupe
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldred
PVC is the last thing you want use, in fact if PVC is all you can get then forget building a system because it is not worth getting killed or maimed for! This has been covered so many times I am hesitant to go into it all over again but using PVC is dangerous as a cocked pistol and those pressure ratings on the stuff don't mean squat when dealing with pressurized gas. Because of the numerous and serious accidents related to using PVC it has been outlawed by both OSHA and MSHA for use with pressurized gases except in special circumstances where the PVC is either buried or enclosed in heavy metal conduit. The longer a PVC system has been in use the greater the chances of a rupture and when that happens it can be disastrous since it will shoot razor sharp shards in all directions with enough force to kill someone. These PVC accidents do happen and people have been seriously hurt and even killed with the stuff, I am not going into detail again or looking up the links all over again so do a search if you are interested-there is a lot to find.


As if that were not enough reason not to use PVC it also is the worst possible choice for air line piping because of it's inability to radiate heat properly causing a PVC system to be extremely moisture prone, that's the main reason for choosing Copper in the first place.


If you are using PVC you are in danger whether you believe it or not because the stuff does rupture and it does hurt people, don't be one of them!

Thanks, I was not aware that would be a problem. I see your point.

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 09-03-2010, 11:36 AM
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copper is my #1 choice for airlines in a shop. followed by black pipe. never use galvanized.
tubetek covered all the basics, very good write up there.
i've done similar air dryers to rambo with one big change. rotate the whole set up 90 degrees so that everything drains to one point, preferably back to the tank where it gets blown out daily.
our shop's current setup is similar to dads, running long sloped lengths on the wall.
i think you will find that most of your drain valves are redundant.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 09-03-2010, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Fool
Those molded plastic stiff bristle brushes work fine the first few times but wear out fast and are to expensive to justify their use imho.
I have to tell you, for me, it was the ONLY way to go. I am not copper pro but did my entire bathroom and more, we are talking all under the house in the walls, the shower, the whole bit. I used one of those brushes and it is still in perfect condition. If you rotate it one direction it will last about forever I would think. Turn it backwards, it is crap in seconds.

It spotlessly cleans it to shiny copper in seconds and the little round one, it was I don't believe any more than two dollars.

Brian
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 09-03-2010, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ogre
copper is my #1 choice for airlines in a shop. followed by black pipe. never use galvanized.
This stuff is funny, check with the air tool manufacturers (at least spray guns for sure) and Copper is first, then Galvanized and NEVER black. Black is for gases that have no moisture. They will rust like a mad dog with compressed air in them. At least that is what Sharpe, Devilbiss and the like say.

Brian
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 09-03-2010, 05:00 PM
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I have torn out old systems made with both black iron and galvanized and IMHO the problems, while they do exist to an extent, are over-blown in both cases. Black iron will rust but honestly I have seen more rust on the outside of it than on the inside and with a normal filter installed (a necessity no matter what is used) rust just don't seem to be a problem. The big complaint about galvanized is that it sheds flakes into the air stream but again a normal filter system negates this, besides it would seem that the problem should disappear in a few days after it is put into use anyway.


Just my opinion on the black iron, I am thinking that condensate from the compressor air will contain small amounts of oil which might be the reason for lack of internal rust, at least most air piping will have an oily residue coating the walls after a few years use. Someone else may have another reason why either black or galvanized may or may not be used and it would be hard to disagree with most reasons that are usually given but IMO either one is ok to use for a shop air system.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 09-03-2010, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TubeTek
-use a fitting brush to clean the ID of fittings. ..... Spin the brush in one direction, not back and forth, and it will last longer and do a better job.
tubetek says all. always go the same way with a fitting brush.
i always go clockwise and have successfully used the same fitting brush for a couple of jobs.
if you reverse the brush even one time it crimps the bristles, making them worthless.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 09-03-2010, 07:17 PM
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galv vs iron pipe:
every commercial/industrial air piping job i have seen/installed/extended is black pipe. galv flakes off. most shops have a central filter at the compressor, not at every drop, the exception being a paint shop.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 09-04-2010, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ogre
galv vs iron pipe:every commercial/industrial air piping job i have seen/installed/extended is black pipe. galv flakes off.

I have done a couple of large shops in galvanized and we used galvanized quite a lot around mining installations but you are right that black iron is far more commonly used, the flaking problem with galvanized however is not nearly as bad as you might think. Some shops and other users will insist on galvanized because of the belief that black iron has a serious rusting problem but I have used both and seen both used in older installations and honestly neither problem seems to be a real problem at all.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 09-04-2010, 09:34 AM
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here's my .02 after 35 yrs in plumbing
soldering is very simple here are a few tips
1- cleaning is very important especially where the end of the fitting meets the pipe. as part of my continuiing education requirement for my master plumber's lic. i sat thru a seminar about methods of joining copper pipe . the actual area needed to make the seal is very small and close to the edge but good penetration throughout the joint reinforces the seal.
2- flux is very important without it your better off trying to braze then solder. Oatey is a popular brand and is easy to find.
3- torch .if you are buying one try to find a turbotorch style tip . you can get a small portable tank kind or one that hooks up to your acetylene tank with an adapter. This kind with the turbotorch style tip will produce a lot of heat with a large tip. I have brazed 4" copper with the large tip. this can save a lot of money on oxygen refills to heat a bolt or part
4- solder 50/50 is available but should NEVER be used on any pipe which may contain drinking water. one nice tip about 50/50 is you can wipe the joint as it is cooling and it will almost look like chrome. There are some new 95/5 lead free solders which flow well are also available.a brand i use is sterling dutch boy or tanment
5- soldering - heat the fitting and joint all over ,when the joint has reached the correct temp. you will see a green color appear in the flame ,at this point feed in the solder and begin to remove the heat. the joint heat should cause the solder to flow .as it is cooling you can wipe the joint to make it look neater
6- dadtruck very nice looking drawing should work well the only suggestion i have is where you connect at end of the main hitting the bull of the tee may cause more turbulence ,take it off the top of the main change that tee to a 90 and it should work fine .It's very humid here in south florida and my system will run all day with nothing out of the hose but the end of the main has some water
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 09-04-2010, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 59 wagon man
here's my .02 after 35 yrs in plumbing
soldering is very simple here are a few tips
1- cleaning is very important especially where the end of the fitting meets the pipe. as part of my continuiing education requirement for my master plumber's lic. i sat thru a seminar about methods of joining copper pipe . the actual area needed to make the seal is very small and close to the edge but good penetration throughout the joint reinforces the seal.
2- flux is very important without it your better off trying to braze then solder. Oatey is a popular brand and is easy to find.
3- torch .if you are buying one try to find a turbotorch style tip . you can get a small portable tank kind or one that hooks up to your acetylene tank with an adapter. This kind with the turbotorch style tip will produce a lot of heat with a large tip. I have brazed 4" copper with the large tip. this can save a lot of money on oxygen refills to heat a bolt or part
4- solder 50/50 is available but should NEVER be used on any pipe which may contain drinking water. one nice tip about 50/50 is you can wipe the joint as it is cooling and it will almost look like chrome. There are some new 95/5 lead free solders which flow well are also available.a brand i use is sterling dutch boy or tanment
5- soldering - heat the fitting and joint all over ,when the joint has reached the correct temp. you will see a green color appear in the flame ,at this point feed in the solder and begin to remove the heat. the joint heat should cause the solder to flow .as it is cooling you can wipe the joint to make it look neater
6- dadtruck very nice looking drawing should work well the only suggestion i have is where you connect at end of the main hitting the bull of the tee may cause more turbulence ,take it off the top of the main change that tee to a 90 and it should work fine .It's very humid here in south florida and my system will run all day with nothing out of the hose but the end of the main has some water


That post is a keeper!


As much as this comes up here this is info that I am sure a lot of guys can use and in relatively few words that is about the best soldering instruction I have seen, I am sure that post is going to be referred to lot in the future.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 09-05-2010, 11:44 AM
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Yes, I wish I had that info before I did my bathroom! I was pretty much in the dark while doing it, I learned as I went.


Brian
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 09-05-2010, 07:34 PM
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Started on the piping project Saturday, began with putting the connections together for the desiccant dryers,, I bought the cleaning brushes, flux,, and went at it,, went OK,, I capped off the exit line and rigged up a fitting to pressurize,,checked with soapy water,, no bubbles.
I'll run the main line on Monday,,

http://www.flickr.com/photos/1371835...7624888065562/

a question on valves,, at the local big box hardware store,, for about 9.00 each I can get brass air line ball valves, for 6.00 they have brass "gas" ball valves, the photo has one of the gas valves,, anyone see an issue with the gas valves in this air line setup?

thanks again
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 09-06-2010, 06:10 AM
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Is the gas valve a ball valve, or does it just look like a ball valve and is actually a butteryfly valve ?
If it is a ball valve what is its pressure rating?
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 09-06-2010, 08:45 AM
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All I know is the ball valves are the ONLY WAY TO GO! What a difference those valves make! It is all I used in my plumbing and in the compressor plumbing.

I have to say, SCREW those "McHome" stores! I go to a REAL hardware store in town and buy quality stuff where I can get REAL advice from people who know what they are selling.

Brian
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 09-06-2010, 01:15 PM
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from the pic shown it looks like a ball valve with a short handle .There might be a mark cast into the body like "WOG"
"600"
that would be an ok valve to use . one little trick about the regular style ball valve with the longer flat metal handle is you can drill a hole in the handle and attach a piece of rod ,bend it 90 degrees and this will allow you to open and close the valve if it is installed where you can't reach it (ceiling)
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