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Shortage of Acetylene!

50K views 162 replies 27 participants last post by  stich626 
#1 ·
I just went to fill my acetylene tank and found out that it is being rationed because of the plant that produces the carbinde in it burnt a while ago!

Holy crap-o-crap, that sucks. Thank goodness for the MIG but damn I wanted to fire up my torch.

Brian
 
#102 ·
Found a little more info on acetylene use and production in the US.

20% of acetylene produced in the US is used for welding/burning/heating purposes. The remainder is used in various chemical processes such as making plastics.

Approx 19% of US acetylene is produced via calcium carbide, and the rest is produced via chemical processes such as partial combustion of methane and cracking byproducts in the oil industry.

BUT, most all of the calcium carbide produced acetylene is used for filling gas cylinders, and only a small part of that production is used for other chemical purposes.

So, it sounds like a large portion of cylinder gas acetylene is produced via calcium carbide, and the KY plant going offline would have a big impact on cylinder gas acetylene availability, while it would have little effect on other chemical users of acetylene.

The article I got this from also said the main reason for making acetylene from calcium carbide is the simple (as compared to the synthesized processes) equipment which lends itself to regional production and filling plants, thus keeping the transport cost of cylinders down.

FWIW, the article was an older one about the production of acetylene in general, written long before the recent plant explosion. So I assume it doesn't contain any spin efforts to justify the current shortage, and the numbers presented regarding cylinder gas acetylene production would seem to back up the fact that the shortage is real and not contrived.

Its sorta sad that many of us, myself included, automatically assume any shortage related to energy sources of any type are manufactured shortages for the purpose of gouging more money out of the public. But, the unfortunate truth is that, if you make that assumption in 10 different cases, you'll be right at least 9 times. Its good to find out the acetylene deal is real rather than another ripoff scheme dreamed up by big business. All that said, I still hate Airgas and won't spend a cent with them as long as there's an alternate source within a 50 mile radius :D
 
#104 ·
All that said, I still hate Airgas and won't spend a cent with them as long as there's an alternate source within a 50 mile radius :D[/QUOTE]

Lol I need more guys like you around here!! Jk. Airgas is ok but I really wish they didn't have a store and fill plant in the same town as me. The good thing about our Airgas is they aren't really looking for the guy who buys one or two bottles every couple of months. They want the big money and big accounts so most of the time they send the little guy to me. We are a small company with 4 stores in Alabama and Tennessee so I want any business. 1 bottle or 100 bottles I don't care. These days a bucks a buck right? Plus these are your loyal customers. Every one that Airgas ****s on means another guy who appreciates me. Plus Airgas is such a corporate monster that customer service depends on how much you're spending. I will get up a two am and throw 2 cylinders in my truck because one of my guys calls and says hey I'm out and I'm on a good job can you help me. I love helping guys out because when their buddy needs to get something who do you think they're gonna refer them to, the big monster who said sorry pal we'll get you in the morning if we can fit it in or the guy who said hold on bud I'll be there in 45 minutes let me get britches on?
 
#105 ·
Fellas we have determined the shortage is real and that maybe both versions of the Acetylene/Carbide production is apparently correct. The bulk of Acetylene production is from Natural gas/Methane and only 15% or so is from Carbide BUT that 15% or so supplies at least 80% of the bottled Acetylene for fuel gas. So it looks as if there is going to be a shortage and major price spikes, for a while at least.

Ok Acetylene is going to be hard to get for a home shop and the question here all along has been "what does the home shop user replace it with"? Honestly of the available fuel gasses what are the advantages of ANY of them over LP for the home shop? LP is going to be by far the easiest to obtain, very likely the cheapest, requires only a tip change with most torches and cuts as cleanly as about anything on the market. The question is when taking away Acetylene's ability to weld what can these other fuel gasses do that LP will not do? Sure they are hotter but in a home shop situation that means very little, with all of them a person can easily cut, braze and heat metal but can weld with none of them.


Acetylene welding may not account for a large percentage of welding but it is still done quite a lot in spite of what some might think so welding is important to a lot of us, for those of us who do weld with gas then advice on how to obtain Acetylene would be in order and not suggestions on another type of fuel.
 
#106 · (Edited)
Lol I need more guys like you around here!!
My local Airgas were nice to me when I was a noob, then I ended up handling orders and running the toolroom for our local vo-tech and became their largest customer (until State funding evaporated).

Many businesses don't understand that if you take care of customers they don't forget it!

I love helping guys out because when their buddy needs to get something who do you think they're gonna refer them to,
Ezzacly. Welders are an outspoken bunch.

Posted by oldred:
Acetylene welding may not account for a large percentage of welding but it is still done quite a lot in spite of what some might think so welding is important to a lot of us, for those of us who do weld with gas then advice on how to obtain Acetylene would be in order and not suggestions on another type of fuel.
Since the sources are regional, perhaps posting who currently "needs" acetylene so others can mention current sources would be appropriate? Who has it on-hand may change over time.

Multifuel suggestions can still be useful since you can cut and heat with an alternate fuel to save acetylene. The crusty veterans won't need that of course, but many folks don't think about convenient ways to do that.

For example, one can use a single oxygen cylinder and a valved Y-fitting (handier for connecting/disconnecting stuff downstream) along with an acetylene welding torch and a propane cutting torch or rosebud setup. No second oxy cylinder rental, no overdraw on small acetylene cylinders for rosebud work, less torch swapping, and money saved for other things.

Google "Western Enterprises" along with the general fitting name and it's often quicker than using their catalog. They rule the roost and their brass fittings are widely available online. If you don't like your LWS or are too far away it's a good way to go.

If you LIKE your LWS, showing up with the printed Western page for reference saves them looking it up. Informed customers are easier to serve. I prefer to do the research and let my LWS do the ordering. Everybody is happy.

The hardcore gas welders might consider haunting Craigslist for more acetylene cylinders to facilitate hoarding. You can get more acetylene cylinders before running your current batch empty.

When hunting used cylinders:

Get the NAME off the neck ring AND the sticker. (I take digital pics when useful.) Over the last century there have been many welding gas suppliers who were later consumed by industry consolidation.

If your local supplier won't exchange the cylinder it's useless. (I would keep 'em for friends who aren't local if they were free.) Call supplier to see if they'll swap. I don't do this where seller can listen in. Know in advance if the supplier actually cares about hydro dates or what hydro will cost. If you have a selection of suppliers, know their different exchange policies.

All this VARIES by region and individual supplier policy. Assume nothing.

Arc marks and other damage can condemn a cylinder easily. There are plenty of UGLY old acetylene cylinders, but know disqualifying damage.

Since J&M is here, he might post his specific policies to educate the group. There are LOTS of good owner-sized cylinders in garages and barns out there which can be exchanged.

If you have buddies with cylinder contracts, they may be able to run your exchange cylinders through their shop. Contract prices can be MUCH lower than guy-off-the-street retail.
 
#107 · (Edited)
I'm not sure about most larger companies policies but i will exchange anything thats not obvious scrap. we do hydrotesting and acetylene/propane requalification in-house so if its just out of date i will charge for requal and swap out. if it winds up being scrap for bad filler or something then i'll either get you next time you come in or just eat it. it happens sometimes. if its a competitors cylinder i'll just swap out with them. they get my cylinders and i get theirs all the time so we will take care of it. some places are just too lazy to deal with it. plus sometimes you get into ownership issues when a guy gives you an airgas bottle and says its his. most of the time its a deal where airgas has his bottle and swapped for theirs and called it clear but if he was renting then hes gonna hit for rent regardless and i'll probably turn that bottle in to get one off my rent too so its really wise for the customer to keep track of it instead of thinking theyre gonna get over on me because it bites back in the end.

some obvioyus scrap issues:
1) if its a B or MC shake it. if the filler inside rattles, it's scrap
2) arc burns, deep cuts, or large dents will scrap it
3) if the top or bottom fuse plugs are trash and rusted to the point i cant get them out, i'm probably gonna scrap it.
4) if the bottom is all rusted out especially where it joins the sidewall i'm probably gonna scrap it and pitting on the sidewall will kill it if its a huge spot and deep.
5) a cylinder over 50 yrs old with the pressed on footring is scrap. they put those press on and sometimes welded on footrings on them and they rust underneath it where i cant see so federal law says i have to kill it.
6) acetylene has to have a shell inspection every ten years. look for a date stamped on the top with an S after it. the newest date is your last shell requal. it also needs a filler inspection 20 years after manufacture. the date will have S and F behind it for that.

you can go to your local supply shop and they can get you a copy of the CGA guidelines. i cant remember the number of the booklet off the top of my head. i think its C-4 but dont hold me to that. i'll look monday when i get to the shop

i know that for the distributors who use western to get their acetylene filled they all received a letter saying if they were caught piggy backing another companies acetylene then their contract would be immediately terminated. but for the guy on the street if you have a buddy in a supply shop who has a steady supply or close to a steady supply i'm sure they can get you taken care of one way or the other. just ask. most supply shops especially the local guys (not a major like airgas) will bend over backwards for their customers. i'm sure they can find a solution for you.
 
#108 ·
1930case said:
Multifuel suggestions can still be useful since you can cut and heat with an alternate fuel to save acetylene. The crusty veterans won't need that of course, but many folks don't think about convenient ways to do that.

For example, one can use a single oxygen cylinder and a valved Y-fitting (handier for connecting/disconnecting stuff downstream) along with an acetylene welding torch and a propane cutting torch or rosebud setup. No second oxy cylinder rental, no overdraw on small acetylene cylinders for rosebud work, less torch swapping, and money saved for other things.

Google "Western Enterprises" along with the general fitting name and it's often quicker than using their catalog. They rule the roost and their brass fittings are widely available online. If you don't like your LWS or are too far away it's a good way to go.

There are LOTS of good owner-sized cylinders in garages and barns out there which can be exchanged.

If you have buddies with cylinder contracts, they may be able to run your exchange cylinders through their shop. Contract prices can be MUCH lower than guy-off-the-street retail.


All good suggestions for those who need Acetylene. I personally have used LP for years for cutting and mostly just use Acetylene to weld with and occasionally with a scarfing tip. For many years when I ran my shop I also used LP for most cutting chores because of the major cost savings so I mostly was just trying to get this discussion back to the main topic of "what do we use now if we can't get Acetylene"?

As far as which alternate gas to use then it must be remembered that home shops are going to have mostly different requirements than an industrial setting. My point from the start has been there is no point in recommending someone go out and spend money for a conversion (if required) for a specialty gas when LP is so easy to find and so inexpensive to use. If there is an advantage to a particular gas vs LP that makes the extra cost and bother worth it then lets discuss that but honestly what benefits, for the home shop, could there be? All I am saying is why have someone spend money for regulators, etc and then hunt down the fuel only to find that they can do the same thing with LP which can be found anywhere? Been a lot of good info for us "Crusty veterans" and it has been quite interesting but the real issue is for the home shop and WHICH alternate gas to use!


My honest opinion is that LP is by far the best choice for the home shop.

Reasons are,

It's probably the least cost both to set up and use.

With most torches it will require a simple tip change.

Widely available and easy to get anywhere.

Cuts cleanly and handles heating and brazing chores easily.


Ok now any suggestions for a better gas alternative and reasons why?
 
#110 ·
oldred said:
All good suggestions for those who need Acetylene. I personally have used LP for years for cutting and mostly just use Acetylene to weld with and occasionally with a scarfing tip. For many years when I ran my shop I also used LP for most cutting chores because of the major cost savings so I mostly was just trying to get this discussion back to the main topic of "what do we use now if we can't get Acetylene"?

As far as which alternate gas to use then it must be remembered that home shops are going to have mostly different requirements than an industrial setting. My point from the start has been there is no point in recommending someone go out and spend money for a conversion (if required) for a specialty gas when LP is so easy to find and so inexpensive to use. If there is an advantage to a particular gas vs LP that makes the extra cost and bother worth it then lets discuss that but honestly what benefits, for the home shop, could there be? All I am saying is why have someone spend money for regulators, etc and then hunt down the fuel only to find that they can do the same thing with LP which can be found anywhere? Been a lot of good info for us "Crusty veterans" and it has been quite interesting but the real issue is for the home shop and WHICH alternate gas to use!


My honest opinion is that LP is by far the best choice for the home shop.

Reasons are,

It's probably the least cost both to set up and use.

With most torches it will require a simple tip change.

Widely available and easy to get anywhere.

Cuts cleanly and handles heating and brazing chores easily.


Ok now any suggestions for a better gas alternative and reasons why?
you basically only have a few options and its up to the individual to decide whats the best for their needs. you got LP, propylene, and hydrogen based alternatives (magnegas and the version of MAPP thats available) and i saw a gasoline setup maybe on this thread. any more out there i'm forgetting??
 
#111 · (Edited)
Since welding with alternate gases ain't happening, it becomes a question of cutting and brazing.

Remember if you want more preheat when cutting, just run a bigger tip and hold the torch back enough to get a clean kerf. Many new cutters don't know that even on warm days a preheat pass over thick metal makes for a much nicer cut.

Tip experimentation for the hobbyist can get expensive, so snag a pile of them cheap off Fleabay or similar. You can also run the American Torch Tip Multi-Use adapter with a variety of inexpensive tips for different gases. I get mine from ATL Welding Supplies online. If you have a vintage torch that's a hassle to get tips for, these can help. My Smith LC and Meco Cutmaster are back in use since I found out about them.

Any propylene fans out there? I've never used it or run into someone with practice using it.

http://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/oxy-fuel-cutting.html
 
#112 ·
1930case said:
Any propylene fans out there? I've never used it or run into someone with practice using it.

http://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/oxy-fuel-cutting.html

Not a fan of the stuff for sure but I did use quite a bit of it back in the 80's before I switched to LP. It has the advantage of LP in that most torches require only a simple tip change and it is hotter. It also seemed to be better in an outdoor situation in really cold weather when a large demand such as a heating tip was required. It has no disadvantage to LP and as I said it is hotter if that is a concern, for a home shop it will not be, and it is widely available at most welding gas suppliers. My suggestion on Propylene would be to base the decision on cost and availability because other than that there will be little difference between it and LP in a home shop.
 
#114 ·
oldred said:
I have not found the burn temperature of this gas (yet) but I seriously doubt it is as hot as Acetylene, that would be industry headline news! Also the site mentions welding, but says little else and a gas that could be used to actually weld steel with would again be headline news to the industry! I certainly could be wrong but I am willing to bet, especially considering the source for this gas (hydrocarbon fuels) that the flame chemistry will have waaaay too much Hydrogen in it to weld with, brazing sure but welding? Sorry I still see nothing here but a sales pitch and a site that is making some extravagant claims that should be an industry shaker but the first place we hear about it is on the internet? :rolleyes:


This is not the first "miracle" gas to come along and the claims for it are about the same old tune as the others. Seriously a gas that is as hot as Acetylene and could be used to weld with would be a major breakthrough and an industry changer but outside of a relatively obscure website where is the big news? Get some facts to back up these miraculous claims and then come back and tell us about it.
I have actually worked in this industry for over 20 years now and i wanted to post some information to clear this up a little bit. This shortage is definately real and happening right now, so alternative fuels are going to have to be used. As far as "heat" goes, there are 2 ways of looking at this. Acetylene burns with oxygen at 5900 degrees, but only puts out 1483 BTU per cubic foot. Propane on the other hand burns with oxygen at a lower 5650 degrees, but puts out 2600 BTU per cubic foot. Either of these temps are hot enough to melt steel readily, but with double the BTU(energy to cut steel) propane is twice as efficient as acetylene. This means out of the same quantity of gas you will be able to cut twice as much. As far as brazing or welding, propane is not a good option, although the Harris companies do make a brazing nozzle for alternate fuel. I have never used one, so i can't claim to know how well they work.
 
#116 ·
Rdrew5762 said:
I have actually worked in this industry for over 20 years now and i wanted to post some information to clear this up a little bit. This shortage is definately real and happening right now, so alternative fuels are going to have to be used. As far as "heat" goes, there are 2 ways of looking at this. Acetylene burns with oxygen at 5900 degrees, but only puts out 1483 BTU per cubic foot. Propane on the other hand burns with oxygen at a lower 5650 degrees, but puts out 2600 BTU per cubic foot. Either of these temps are hot enough to melt steel readily, but with double the BTU(energy to cut steel) propane is twice as efficient as acetylene. This means out of the same quantity of gas you will be able to cut twice as much. As far as brazing or welding, propane is not a good option, although the Harris companies do make a brazing nozzle for alternate fuel. I have never used one, so i can't claim to know how well they work.


That's been my point about using LP and for the home shop I just can't think of anything better. As far as brazing /welding, it does work for brazing but not as well as Acetylene due to it not being as hot but with the right tip and a bit of patience it does work. Welding is just not going to happen period! Even with enough heat to melt the weld puddle it still will not work because the flame chemistry is all wrong and all it will do is make a mess.
 
#117 · (Edited)
Here's a guy with the right brazing tips, patience, and pics of work plus a bend test:

http://www.chaski.com/homemachinist/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=87931

I used to braze steel rule fabric cutting dies for a stuffed toy company. (Eden Toys, Jersey City, I'm ancient!) We used acetylene because it was what the company had.

They would take some impressive force on the cutting press (they work like cookie cutters for fabric) and the normal failure point was when the steel bent and twisted.

Heat it, beat it straight, braze it, and put it back back to work cutting more toy skins.

Brazing is tough, flexible, EASY to learn, and you can wash off the brazing filler with a torch without trashing the parent metal.
 
#118 ·
1930case said:
Brazing is tough, flexible, EASY to learn, and you can wash off the brazing filler with a torch without trashing the parent metal.

We may be heading off in a different direction here but that is an excellent point! Brazing is a very often mis-understood method of repair and too many people just think of it as a weak patch instead of the strong joint it is. Proper Brazing with a good Bronze filler is a lot stronger than most people give it credit for and it is often passed up for that reason when it actually might be the better choice depending on the job at hand.
 
#119 ·
Brazing can be an opportunistic use of available equipment.

Gearhead buys propane torch for inexpensive cutting, needs to join something unexpected, has brazing (which can be done with the preheat flame of a cutting torch as well as a combo torch tip) in their "mental toolbox", solves problem.

Multiply "stuff you own" by "what that stuff can do" and that can be quite a bit of scope.

Extra points for not requiring electricity.
 
#121 ·
Alternative Fuels Seminar for FREE! (In Chicago)

http://wiscoonline.com/pdf/alternate-fuel.pdf

Come on by, burn some free fuel, learn how to do it right from the pro's. This is a free class in alternative fuels.

There is no known date to when Acytl will be available in the US again. Our method of producing required calicium carbide and a arc furnace, with a temp of 3000 (C). It's a tricky process, and very dependent on the same grade of calcium carbide. With our only plant offline, no one knows when we'll be back up to speed - so best to learn from the pro's how to get by without.

-Techie
 
#122 ·
shortage of acetylene

Techie said:
http://wiscoonline.com/pdf/alternate-fuel.pdf

Come on by, burn some free fuel, learn how to do it right from the pro's. This is a free class in alternative fuels.

There is no known date to when Acytl will be available in the US again. Our method of producing required calicium carbide and a arc furnace, with a temp of 3000 (C). It's a tricky process, and very dependent on the same grade of calcium carbide. With our only plant offline, no one knows when we'll be back up to speed - so best to learn from the pro's how to get by without.

-Techie
\
This looks like an ad to me, no ads on the forum there is a place for them, not in the threads. :nono: :nono: :nono:

Bob
 
#123 ·
New guy and only 2 posts, both about the same thing and why is he going to the trouble? May be some good info there but I am willing to bet that there will be one exceptionally good alternative that will wildly outperform all others! :rolleyes:


Anyone living close by might find it interesting but go prepared for a "Snake oil" sales pitch!
 
#124 ·
I love when someone is doing a google search and finds the name of a product in some years old thread and posts and ad on that old thread. That cracks me up.

Brian
 
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