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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 04-01-2011, 06:01 AM
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Hey I'm not a sales rep. I'm just giving you information to look into on your own. Fact is over the coming months acetylene is going to be harder and more costly to find. There are several YouTube videos demonstrating the product and I've seen it my self. That's all I can tell you. Many new ideas spend a few years floating in obscurity until the right channel picks it up. I'll see if I can get some technical details and if so I'll post them the minute I get them. Or you can email the company and ask them. This product is just being released to the market so it's still young. They just got DOT and FDA approval a few months ago but everyone who has seen it demo'd has said it's awesome. I'm not here to sell it to you but when the acetylene gets impossible to find it's an idea to look into

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 04-01-2011, 08:25 AM
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heres what i found so far

this is for acetylene from airgas website and the pic is from magnegas

" * Combustion with oxygen achieves a flame temperature of 5580 F (3087 C), releasing 1470 BTUs per cubic foot."
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 04-01-2011, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J&MCylinderGases
" * Combustion with oxygen achieves a flame temperature of 5580 F (3087 C), releasing 1470 BTUs per cubic foot."


Those numbers are indeed close to Acetylene but not as hot, as most sources put Acetylene at 6000+ F-example

http://www.hypertextbook.com/facts/2...yCheedie.shtml

http://www.advantagefabricatedmetals...e-welding.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxy-fue...ng_and_cutting


200 to 400 deg or so does make a difference.


Again what about welding? That was the big question being asked in this thread since we already have good alternative cutting gasses.


So this stuff is right in the ball park with MAPP, at a little over 5300 F the MAPP is not quite as hot and just like MAPP what about welding? We already have easily available gasses for cutting so whats the big advantage to the home user here? I am not saying this gas will not find a home in industry and may be a viable alternative to replace Acetylene in some cases but we are talking home shop work here and I fail to see any big advantage over the easily obtainable and VERY cheap LP gas for cutting. I can certainly see where it would be a better cutting fuel in an industrial situation but again we are talking home shop here and even industrial cutting uses a heck of a lot of LP because of the huge cost advantage.


The reason I got a bit peeved is seeing the usual wild claims of "Hotter than Acetylene"! (It's obviously not) "outperforms Acetylene"! (but in what way?) Just be realistic and forget the fantastic claims, call it like it is, a decent replacement for Acetylene for some applications and produced from an environmentally friendly source. These are good attributes and are real pluses for this gas so why use mis-leading hype?
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Old 04-01-2011, 12:24 PM
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Still waiting on an email from magnegas. I know you can weld with it but I don't have specifics yet and I'm not a welder I just run a fill plant. I was breaking down cost earlier and basically it takes two 185 cf bottles to equal 1 60# propylene bottle. Around the southeast propylene is running around $1.20 a pound and you get around 250-260 cf out of it so say roughly $70 for the propylene. The magnegas is probably going to go for around $20-$30 for 185 cf so for less than the cost of propylene you're getting 100 more cf. Plus if this shortage continues propylene and propane will jump as well. This is America where if a guy can make an extra buck he will. You can figure the price of it all yourself based on magnegas running around 30-35 cents a cf (this depends on your local market) and propylene/propane running at your local price with a yield of 4.32 cf/lb and 8.5cf/lb respectively. Hell you can make a buck and save a buck as well.
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Old 04-01-2011, 12:48 PM
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[QUOTE=oldred

The reason I got a bit peeved is seeing the usual wild claims of "Hotter than Acetylene"! (It's obviously not) "outperforms Acetylene"! (but in what way?) Just be realistic and forget the fantastic claims, call it like it is, a decent replacement for Acetylene for some applications and produced from an environmentally friendly source. These are good attributes and are real pluses for this gas so why use mis-leading hype?[/QUOTE]

If I may ask a question here, without stealing the thread. I have never give a hoot how hot my torch was, just so I could cut and weld with it.
Now red said that Acetylene would get up past 6000* F, J&M's posted that the Magne gas would get to 5580* F,. I think I'm right in saying depending on tip size for both.

Now we know how hot each gas will burn, but what I couldn't fine is how hot the metal you are welding must be. ( I know each metal will have it's own melting point.) But say we are using plain old Iron. What is the puddling Temp. so you can use filler rod, I have no idea, and you fella's know more than I when it comes to Temp. on these gases.
Is the 6000* F overkill, when the 5580* F would be more than enough. Would the Magne Gas work for most home projects, I know it could be 450* to 750* F difference.
It is something I would like to know after reading the posts.

Thank you

Bob
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Old 04-01-2011, 12:49 PM
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This gas appears to have some real advantages over propylene/propane in some ways however unless it can be used to weld with those advantages don't mean much to the home user, main advantages being higher cutting speeds and somewhat cleaner cutting. It will be interesting to see if there actually is a new gas available that can be used for welding, I still think the Hydrogen will be a killer in this respect however but the industry has been waiting over 100 years for such a gas so we can wait a little longer to find out. .
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Old 04-01-2011, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 35terraplane
If I may ask a question here, without stealing the thread. I have never give a hoot how hot my torch was, just so I could cut and weld with it.
Now red said that Acetylene would get up past 6000* F, J&M's posted that the Magne gas would get to 5580* F,. I think I'm right in saying depending on tip size for both.

Now we know how hot each gas will burn, but what I couldn't fine is how hot the metal you are welding must be. ( I know each metal will have it's own melting point.) But say we are using plain old Iron. What is the puddling Temp. so you can use filler rod, I have no idea, and you fella's know more than I when it comes to Temp. on these gases.
Is the 6000* F overkill, when the 5580* F would be more than enough. Would the Magne Gas work for most home projects, I know it could be 450* to 750* F difference.
It is something I would like to know after reading the posts.

Thank you

Bob

Those temperature differences could mean a great deal in some instances but not for normal cutting where even LP at a much lower temperature works quite well. The temperature for the gas in question here is well within welding range and temperature was never the question as far as welding, it is the flame chemistry that determines whether it can be used or not. Even lowly Propane could get most metal hot enough to weld with but like almost all fuel gasses it has way too much Hydrogen to be usable for that purpose and I suspect the same will be be true for this gas especially considering it's base source, just to be fair however that still remains to be seen.
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Old 04-01-2011, 01:14 PM
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Whatever we end up with, it looks like I should hoard my half bottle of acetylene, 145cu ft, at least for the near future. This is a purchased bottle, so don't have to worry about 'rent' either. I assume I'll be looking at the miracle gas in the future

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Old 04-01-2011, 01:15 PM
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Just got a reply from magnegas president. He is gathering information for me and will email me later. He tells me anything you can do with acetylene you can do with magnegas and if he doesn't email me he will be here Monday at my plant and I'll find out then and try to video a demo of the welding side of it.
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Old 04-01-2011, 01:25 PM
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shortage of Acetylene

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irelands child
Whatever we end up with, it looks like I should hoard my half bottle of acetylene, 145cu ft, at least for the near future. This is a purchased bottle, so don't have to worry about 'rent' either. I assume I'll be looking at the miracle gas in the future

Dave W
I'm in the same boat Dave, But I have had mine forever. Heck Moby Dick was a minnow the last time I used it for welding.

Thanks Red for the Info. My head is full of worthless knowledge, I thought I would put something worth while in there.

Bob
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Old 04-01-2011, 01:41 PM
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I checked my bottles today and sure enough one of them is empty! I have the other 145 bottle and like Dave I own my bottles so this is likely to last a while, I use LP for most of my cutting chores anyway. The only thing I will have to quit doing is using my scarfing tip to remove welds or for weld prep but Acetylene has gotten so expensive already I was about to quit doing that anyway. I hate a stinkin Carbon Arc Gouge with a passion and those darn things have probably caused more weld failures than any one thing but I think I may have to just bite the bullet and drag the Darn thing out since nothing but Acetylene works satisfactorily for flame gouging.
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Old 04-01-2011, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J&MCylinderGases
Just got a reply from magnegas president. He is gathering information for me and will email me later. He tells me anything you can do with acetylene you can do with magnegas and if he doesn't email me he will be here Monday at my plant and I'll find out then and try to video a demo of the welding side of it.

Sounds like he simply does not have the specifics at hand, odd since this is such a major industry breakthrough, and if he is going by the fact that the gas is nearly the same temperature that is a non-starter! There is a lot more to it than just getting the metal hot and Acetylene is unique in it's chemistry in that it is the only gas (so far) that can be adjusted to a true neutral flame. Anything else (so far) can not be adjusted to a neutral setting because of the chemical make-up, mostly too much Hydrogen, and the fact that Acetylene has the ability to produce a Carbon Dioxide cone over the weld puddle that acts as a shielding gas. It would be interesting to see how this new stuff can do all this without actually being Acetylene but to be fair maybe it is close enough.

Just consider however that for over 100 years Acetylene has been the hottest gas and the only gas that was practical to weld with known to industry and now suddenly another gas claims to be all these things and more and the first place we hear of it is on a website? Forgive me if I am a bit skeptical and want to see some real proof!
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Old 04-01-2011, 02:47 PM
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Ok still waiting on welding info but I got more info on the cutting aspect for anyone who is interested. I know it's not answering "the question of the day" but I'm trying. Here is the email I have so far.

"The flame temp is 6100 and we put oxygen back into the atmosphere(12.5%). I have the settings so dialed in that I am seeing no slag...seriously. *We tested with the US Navy and we did 1/2 plate, 10 inches in 19 seconds. That is flying but we were 1000% less toxic than liquid petroleum.. Aka propylene,propane etc.. If you need reports from the labs? I will bring them with me. "
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Old 04-01-2011, 03:07 PM
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Ok they say the gas is 5580 F, 5800 F and now 6100 F when they decide which it is let us know. Again to be fair Acetylene in extreme situations can be as little as around 5800 F to over 6300 F in the right situation so conflicting numbers here don't really mean a heck of a lot but they still need a standard for comparsion. This stuff really does sound good and I am sure it is far better than Propane from a performance standpoint but then so is MAPP. The excess Oxygen is interesting and would seem to preclude any chance of it being usable as a welding gas plus if it is putting 12.5% of the Oxygen back into the atmosphere is that Oxygen coming from the tank (as in being wasted)? A flame with a 12.5% Oxygen excess would really make for some interesting welds don't you think? I can see maybe where that O2 excess in the preheat flame of a cutting torch could not only help increase the cutting speed but it would seem also that it might actually make cutting a bit less of a challenge for someone who has trouble holding a torch steady.


EDIT, I see now where the excess O2 is coming from so waste is not a problem but it looks to be a serious problem for use as a welding fuel!

Last edited by oldred; 04-01-2011 at 03:12 PM.
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Old 04-01-2011, 03:19 PM
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This is the Magnegas web site. It includes the MSDS along with a bunch of other info I haven't read yet but will - I'm on my way out now. http://www.magnegas.com/index.html

The process with a cursory look is "magic" but after a better look, may downgrade to just simple chemistry/electronics.

I do hope it will work, but ...... we'll see

Dave W
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