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  #61 (permalink)  
Old 04-01-2011, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J&MCylinderGases
where are you and i'll see if theres a distributor close. the only changes are that you need a hydrogen regulator and propane tips. the rest should stay the same.
We currently buy our gas and equipment from Trico in Elyria, Oh about 20 west of Cleveland.
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  #62 (permalink)  
Old 04-01-2011, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J&MCylinderGases
where are you and i'll see if theres a distributor close. the only changes are that you need a hydrogen regulator and propane tips. the rest should stay the same.

This is exactly the point I have been trying to make, with this gas you can buy a new regulator, a new tip and pay more for the gas than you would with LP and then you can cut with it. With LP you pay less for the gas and you need to buy a new tip and then- well you can cut with it. Will the Mangegas cut better? Maybe but that depends entirely on a person's needs and thickness of material, for the type of home use these guys are doing LP will work just fine. If saving a few seconds doing the type of cutting most here are doing is worth the extra expense then go for it but even I use LP instead of Acetylene (or in this case Mangegas if I had it) because for all practical purposes it works just as well and is a heck of a lot cheaper. Again one can correctly argue that Mangegas is probably better, just as is Acetylene or for that matter MAPP, but for home use any advantage of any of these will be negligible except for Acetylene's ability to weld. If you have to cut 4" stock or you are doing production runs where time is money then look into Mangegas or Mapp but honestly where is Mangegas going to be better than LP for a home shop?

The stuff has it's advantages, it looks marginally better than MAPP but unless it is shown to be able to weld it is inferior to Acetylene so again what's the home shop advantage? I have been a professional welder for over 40 years and I use LP for nearly all my cutting, the fact is if it were not for welding I would have no need for anything except LP. There is simply nothing outside of an industrial setting in the home shop that any of these gasses can do that LP can not, it will easily cut heavy stock, far heavier than most anyone here will ever need for hobby use, it cuts thin stock easily and cleanly, it will braze quite well and for heating metal it is hard to beat, I just recently bent a 4"X3/4" 1018 steel bar to a 90 deg angle using LP and just a cutting tip, with a heating head jobs far bigger than that are easily accomplished. The point of all this is to cut through the smoke screen and point out that for all the hype and extra expense and inconvenience of finding the stuff in the end it will cut metal. LP will do the same job for a lot less money and do it quite cleanly if you don't mind waiting a few seconds longer to preheat and then cut a bit slower and it is not at all slow!

Simple question, if this stuff will not weld then HONESTLY what are these guys going to get for the extra money? When I said save a few seconds on the type of work most here will be doing I meant just that, seconds!
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  #63 (permalink)  
Old 04-01-2011, 09:04 PM
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What size propane bottle do you use red? And what's the price of propane in your area?

To the rest of the board:

How many of you use acetylene to weld? Serious question. Apparently the demand for acetylene for welding purposes is higher than I imagined since all my customers use stick mig or tig outfits. I did see a demo online using magnegas to braze with bronze but I'm still hunting the answer to Red burning question. And red you mentioned several red flags but the only one I'm seeing is welding abilities so please refresh my memory as to the other issues you have regarding the gas and not my presentation of it. Again I'm not even a sales rep but I'm trying to get you answers but you just keep beating a dead horse. The minute I get an answer it'll go up here
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  #64 (permalink)  
Old 04-01-2011, 09:23 PM
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I ran quick numbers on a 20# propane (like a grill bottle) and you get 170 cu ft yield on that. I called around three weeks ago looking for a new propane supplier and my distributor rate was 1.79 lb and that was after some negotation so with that rate your paying roughly $35 per bottle and if your getting a cheaper rate then you're getting a deal but I don't know your market price. Magnegas I'm expecting is going to run around $25-30 for 185 cu ft so you're getting 15 more cu ft for the same price if not less. So where is all this wasted money? And this whole thing comes down to the fact that acetylene is going to skyrocket and propane and propylene are going to follow it due to market demand.
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  #65 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2011, 07:31 AM
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LP is way cheaper than Acetylene and that is why I and a heck of a lot of others use it, it's been that way for years and if it were not we would not bother with it. If Manegas is cheaper or even close to the cost of LP then ok it may be a viable alternative if it becomes easy to find locally. I am simply trying to point out that there is usually two sides to every story and with most products there is more to it than the sales pitch. Again I am not necessarily knocking the product but when someone comes here proclaiming great things that are questionable at best I simply want to turn up the facts and this seems to be the only way to do it. It was said to be hotter than Acetylene but it's not, it was proclaimed to be a welding fuel but it's not, so what else might we find? Again since it apparently will not weld what advantage is there going to be that would make a person go out and buy a new regulator so he can use a gas that will, for almost all home shop use, do the same thing as LP? My whole point is that LP is going to be a better choice for home shop use for the same reasons it is better for that purpose than Acetylene, MAPP or even Propylene. All these gasses offer some advantage to LP but hardly any of it applies to the home user. I am not telling anyone not to buy this stuff but I am saying think before jumping. When you get this new gas home you can cut with it and heat metal with it, with the LP a simple tip change from Acetylene and then-you cut with it and heat metal with it, you will not be able to weld with either. The Manegas cuts clean but so does LP, VERY clean! Again if the Mangegas is cheap enough to make it worth the extra effort to obtain then fine it will do everything the LP will do but for the home shop it will do little more.


When I said "red flags" I did not mean the product I was talking about the sales pitch,for instance it clearly refers to cutting and WELDING fuel but it apparently does not weld. You contacted the company and they could not even tell you if the gas could be used for welding, an industry shaking breakthrough like that and they did not even know? But according them it will do anything Acetylene will do but that does not seem to be true if it can not weld. Then maybe the guy did work on the process for thirty years, I seriously doubt he did it overnight, but come on that is the standard line every magic energy gizmo "inventor" uses, why is always thirty years?


The bottom line is it will do, for the home user, little or nothing that LP will not do. All I am saying is anyone that is thinking about this gas should ask themselves if it is going to be worth the extra effort, equipment cost to convert and extra expense to do everything they could be doing with LP.
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  #66 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2011, 08:34 AM
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I just did some calling around (had nothing to do with Manegas, was not even mentioned) and I have found that the Acetylene shortage, while real, is largely fabricated! I was surprised to find that only a small percentage of Acetylene is from carbide anymore and that most comes from the process using Methane/natural gas and a very small amount is from a plasma arc process with only a small part being made from carbide, actually less than 15%! Apparently the plant closing has only a small impact on production and distribution changes are causing a temporary shortage, basically the "shortage" appears to be more concocted than real.


Take this for what it is, info gathered from people who should know but I am in no way stating this as absolute fact! What is an indicator of the accuracy of this info is that all three of these guys said essentially the same thing.



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  #67 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2011, 08:39 AM
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Very interesting Red, very interesting.

Brian
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  #68 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2011, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J&MCylinderGases
And this whole thing comes down to the fact that acetylene is going to skyrocket and propane and propylene are going to follow it due to market demand.

And I suppose Manegas will not follow suit and just freeze their prices where they are now, right?
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  #69 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2011, 10:18 AM
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We here are having no difficulty in getting acetylene gas and the local guys do use quite a bit..Dunno about any shortage here..

I did make a couple of calls as far as around here we have not been affected by any shortage of gas..I suspect that any shortage will be made up by other plants and processes.

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  #70 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2011, 11:23 AM
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shortage of Acetylene

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldred
I just did some calling around (had nothing to do with Manegas, was not even mentioned) and I have found that the Acetylene shortage, while real, is largely fabricated! I was surprised to find that only a small percentage of Acetylene is from carbide anymore and that most comes from the process using Methane/natural gas and a very small amount is from a plasma arc process with only a small part being made from carbide, actually less than 15%! Apparently the plant closing has only a small impact on production and distribution changes are causing a temporary shortage, basically the "shortage" appears to be more concocted than real.


Take this for what it is, info gathered from people who should know but I am in no way stating this as absolute fact! What is an indicator of the accuracy of this info is that all three of these guys said essentially the same thing.



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I found another two cents. Red I agree with what you said.
I posted in my 1st post that the gas dealers around here had no shortage of Acetylene, and had not heard of one. When I made the post, I had only talked to one dealer, later I talked to two others. Like I said in my post, investors are causing the price to go up, not a shortage.

Now with that said Red would you agree, if this gas can cut and do what LP can and is cheaper, (and it's only cheaper by a little now) if a person was just starting out, that buying the torches to handle Magne gas, would be the way to go. Running out and buying all you need to use it with your torches you have, would not be worth the money unless you cut a lot.

Bob

Last edited by 35terraplane; 04-02-2011 at 11:26 AM. Reason: add
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  #71 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2011, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 35terraplane
I found another two cents. Red I agree with what you said.
I posted in my 1st post that the gas dealers around here had no shortage of Acetylene, and had not heard of one. When I made the post, I had only talked to one dealer, later I talked to two others. Like I said in my post, investors are causing the price to go up, not a shortage.

Now with that said Red would you agree, if this gas can cut and do what LP can and is cheaper, (and it's only cheaper by a little now) if a person was just starting out, that buying the torches to handle Magne gas, would be the way to go. Running out and buying all you need to use it with your torches you have, would not be worth the money unless you cut a lot.

Bob

Sure this gas would do a good job and probably much cheaper than Acetylene and again I am not trying to be the bad guy here and knock the product I just want an HONEST assessment, wild claims of being able to do what no other gas in the last 100 years has done is hardly an honest assessment. I am certainly not trying to say J&M is being dishonest in fact he actually sounds like a great guy who truly wants to help, I mean after all it's not like he is selling the gas directly to people here. All I am trying to do is point out that this gas really does not appear to be anything revolutionary except for the way it is produced and unless it turns out to be able to do more than it appears at this point it may not be a better investment than LP for the home user, but then again it very well may be. The bottom line is that there is little or nothing lacking with LP as far as a replacement cutting fuel (for Acetylene) so is there any real advantage to the home user to choose Mangegas over LP? I am simply trying to get anyone thinking about this gas to ask themselves that question and take an honest look at what they are investing in. Most places will have LP available locally and from several sources while Mangegas is very likely to be more difficult to find and available only at specialized welding supply locations. Then there is the extra equipment, a new regulator and tank, will the tank have to be rented from the supplier as opposed to easily purchased LP tanks? Maybe the tank can be purchased that is just one of the things that needs to be considered along with the cost of the regulator. This is a new product, will it succeed and still be available at your location next year? If not then what else can your new equipment be used for if you have to switch back? I am not saying ANY of this is going to be a problem but it very well could be and needs to be considered. All I am saying is look beyond the glowing claims made by the company and consider what very well may be a fairly costly investment to be able to the same thing that could be done cheaper with LP.
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  #72 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2011, 03:59 PM
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Guys - we have about beaten the subject to death, which is a good thing as it tends to get the argument out on the floor. Now, the question is, who is going to step up with a few bucks and give it a try. I don't use my oxy acet outfit often enough or I would. Some unknown's testimonial on the Magnegas website - wont cut it for me nor most of the other skeptics here.

So with that said, a challenge to J&M from me, a fairly old timer here one of the largest car enthusiasts sites - why not put it to Magnegas for them to supply the mod parts and a tank of gas to someone like Oldred, a pro, tho retired, to do some cutting, some scarfing and then some welding?? I think that he would give us a fair and impartial report on what this miracle gas can or cannot accomplish .

Dave W
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  #73 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2011, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irelands child
Guys - we have about beaten the subject to death, which is a good thing as it tends to get the argument out on the floor. Now, the question is, who is going to step up with a few bucks and give it a try. I don't use my oxy acet outfit often enough or I would. Some unknown's testimonial on the Magnegas website - wont cut it for me nor most of the other skeptics here.

So with that said, a challenge to J&M from me, a fairly old timer here one of the largest car enthusiasts sites - why not put it to Magnegas for them to supply the mod parts and a tank of gas to someone like Oldred, a pro, tho retired, to do some cutting, some scarfing and then some welding?? I think that he would give us a fair and impartial report on what this miracle gas can or cannot accomplish .

Dave W
Yep, I'm with you.

Brian
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Old 04-02-2011, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irelands child
, some scarfing


Ahh, SCARFING!!! Now there is something I both mentioned and missed at the same time! I would bet with it's higher temperature and one of those otherwise mostly useless LP scarfing tips scarfing could be accomplished with this gas! Tips for scarfing are available for LP but with the low preheat they simply don't work worth a hoot, since the preheat of this gas is nearly as hot as Acetylene it just might work but even Acetylene would benefit from a hotter flame if it were possible. Scarfing is such a fuel hungry process it was getting to be a very expensive undertaking using Acetylene but it is still FAR better than a carbon arc gouge for that purpose. I don't know how many here use the process in our hobby but I surely do and would be lost without it. Nothing beats it for removing welded parts or prepping a weld joint, sure beats the dickens out of grinding!


The carbon contamination from an arc gouge (AirArc) to the metal surface has probably caused more unnecessary weld failures than any other one thing I can think of. For those here that use neither flame scarfing or an arc gouge you might want to check it out. Just like gas welding flame gouging is becoming a lost art but it is a superior method of metal removal that certainly deserves serious consideration.
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  #75 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2011, 09:09 AM
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I get 33# LP forklift cylinders filled for $26, so the $1.79/lb price sounds way high to me. And the price I get on those cylinders is just the street price, nothing special. You get about 8 cu ft of LP gas per pound, so about 260 cu ft for 26 bucks makes the cost about a dime per cu ft, or way less than this magnegas stuff.

The MSDS shows hydrogen as the primary and only combustible ingredient. The other main ingredient is carbon monoxide, which I have to assume gets burned by the hydrogen and oxygen to form carbon dioxide and release some energy in the process.

This stuff appears to have an energy content per cu ft that's half or less that of acetylene. In any sort of heating application, that would lead you to assume you'd use twice as many cubic feet to do the same heating as you would if using acetylene.

I use LP on my mechanized burning table, and I can't imagine there's anything out there that'll operate cheaper as a fuel source. In burning, its the oxygen that's the major portion of the cost. Anyone who does much burning has to use liquid oxygen because of its lower cost as compared to compressed gas oxy. Only problem is, liquid oxy has to vent continuously, so its a use it or lose it proposition, so you have to have an ongoing and regular use to make the liquid pay off.

Regarding the supposed shortage of acetylene from lack of calcium carbide, that doesn't flush based on the small percentage of acetylene produced today via calcium carbide. Like everything else to do with energy today, I'd guess its 90% price gouging, the same as we're seeing with gasoline and diesel where there's no shortage but we still get a 50% price increase thanks to price manipulation by commodity traders.
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