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  #76 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2011, 09:35 AM
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Tube, your assessment of the true shortage is an echo of what my sources, who are in the gas business, were telling me. Also I have used LP for years as a cost effective alternative to Acetylene and my experience with mechanized burning equipment is that the LP was every bit as fast as Acetylene, but somewhat slower if cutting free-hand, and the cut was extremely clean in either instance! I did not look at all the specs on this gas (Mangegas) but for sure temperature is one thing and BTU's per lb is quite another, high heat with twice the fuel consumption is not much of a deal. The fact is that Acetylene (C2H2) has unique physical properties that are a tough act to beat and despite the usual wild claims and mis-information when a new fuel gas comes along Acetylene is the only fuel that can be adjusted to a true neutral flame allowing for maximum fuel economy and the unique ability to weld without contamination.


The Mangegas pitch points to the excess of O2 as a plus but it seems to me that it could cause more problems than any small benefits it might offer, which would be what?

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  #77 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2011, 10:10 AM
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Red,
I bought my burning table at an auction, so I didn't get any literature with it. It came with 40 or so of the 2 piece tips, all in a wood block that was marked with tip number and thickness range. Seemed like everything I cut always required some fiddling with speeds and pressures to get a good cut.

I had some parts to cut from 5" thick plate one time, so I decided it'd be best to start with new tips. Went to the local supply house that actually knows something about what they're selling (unlike Airgas here) and when the guy told me what size tips I needed, I thought immediately the size was different than what was marked on my wood tip storage block.

He told me the single biggest problem in burning is that people tend to use tips that are too big for freehand and ones that are too small for machine cutting. I got a couple tips, and he gave me a manufacturer's sheet on the proper size for various thicknesses and machine use. Cut that 5" stuff slicker than you could bandsaw it, and using the cheat sheet for the rest of my cutting made it run without any fiddling around, and with better cut quality than I'd ever gotten in the past.

Any sort of reaction that produces free oxygen would seem to me the last sort of thing one would want to use for gas welding, even if it would produce enough heat. Sort of like trying to weld with an oxidizing flame, which we both know don't work out so great
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  #78 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2011, 11:28 AM
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I have an Airco Mapp setup I got off Ebay for $40. takes a small Mapp cylinder and has a Mapp regulator. I have a 20CF oxygen tank to feed the oxygen.. Heats up bolts and things just fine. The tip on it that came with it is actually a welding tip, tho I have never tried to gas weld with it.. I don't have a cutting tip/ torch yet... I'v also used propane cylinders with it, and I have the adapter to refill the small cylinders with a 20lb cylinder, and could also get an adapter hose from the sporting goods store to use a 20lb cylinder on it, which might not be a bad idea..

As for the Acetylene shortage. The way I see it is, Magnegas has been around since 2005ish ( quick google search shows refrence to it in that year ). meanwhile I have never heard of it, and thus is probably only marginally profitible. Magnegas spreading a " The End of Acetylene is near " rumor when the lack of Calcium Carbide is only effects a small fraction of Acetylene production.. This is the only way Magnegas can gain a profit margin, because those people would be switched to a magnegas setup even after Acetylene became more available.. Just my .02 cents
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Old 04-03-2011, 04:23 PM
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the sky is falling
the sky is falling...
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Old 04-05-2011, 12:30 PM
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Acetylene gas gone-What now?

Concoa made all the Airco style equipment, still makes it under the Concoa label. This equipment will work with all fuel gases. All you do is change the cutting tip, regulators are OK with propane, propylene , natural gas etc. Propylene can be used to braze and weld with but doesn't like the smaller #00-#0 welding tip sizes. Check out their website, www.concoa.com
Hope this helps,
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Old 04-05-2011, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogman
Propylene can be used to braze and weld with

Propylene has been around a long time and some places have promoted it as a welding gas but that simply is not true, not by a long shot. Propylene is hotter than LP and can be used for brazing but the flame chemistry is wrong for welding steel and it will not do so, anyone who has tried should be able to attest to that!
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Old 04-07-2011, 11:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR
I am hoping I can get some using my employers account at a different welding supply. We just got our ox/ace tanks exchanged this past monday and nothing was said. At my source (where I have been going for thirty years) I was told unless I have an "account" (as in charge account) I simply couldn't get any, period. So I will be calling who we use at work and see if I can get any there.


Brian
I'm sure all welding supplies will handle this a little different. Customers that we have who have service agreements with us naturally will get the product first due to contract obligation. Some suppliers are going to be in better shape than other so they may not here of a shortage for some time. Most of us are using such small amounts of Acetylene that our tanks won't run out until everything is resolved. If you have and need to exchange you might have to look around and work a deal with your employer. Our bigger customers will receive 50% of what they normally would take for now. It makes the product go farther and stop people from panic ordering large amounts so you and I can't have any. Once again see if you can run alternative fuels, usually it's just a tip change, ask you supplier. We are always glad to teach our customers to run alternative fuels, providing they are not gas welding.
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Old 04-07-2011, 11:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldred
Tube, your assessment of the true shortage is an echo of what my sources, who are in the gas business, were telling me. Also I have used LP for years as a cost effective alternative to Acetylene and my experience with mechanized burning equipment is that the LP was every bit as fast as Acetylene, but somewhat slower if cutting free-hand, and the cut was extremely clean in either instance! I did not look at all the specs on this gas (Mangegas) but for sure temperature is one thing and BTU's per lb is quite another, high heat with twice the fuel consumption is not much of a deal. The fact is that Acetylene (C2H2) has unique physical properties that are a tough act to beat and despite the usual wild claims and mis-information when a new fuel gas comes along Acetylene is the only fuel that can be adjusted to a true neutral flame allowing for maximum fuel economy and the unique ability to weld without contamination.


The Mangegas pitch points to the excess of O2 as a plus but it seems to me that it could cause more problems than any small benefits it might offer, which would be what?
LP is always a great choice. LP makes greater BTU's and is more readily available. We sell 3 other choices besides Acetylene. Fuel mixture is a science it takes a certain amount of Oxygen molecules vs. fuel molecules to crate a neutral flame. Yes you can get a true neutral flame with any gas it science. Acetylene uses 2 parts O2 to 1 part Acetylene. Propane and fuel gases use about 4 to 4.5 to 1 O2 to fuel. This is only to get the neutral flame though. Oxygen is the cheaper gas as well. Remember that the cutting is only achieved with the oxygen, the fuel your using has almost no effect on the cutting ability. The fuels only job is to get the metal to a kindling temperature so you can introduce the oxygen.
Everyone will say their alternative fuel is the best, the newer Chemtanes and StarFlame 2 (Same Gas) is the more advanced of the alternatives, we sell all of them. Remember to buy a correct tip to run your Propane based fuels.
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  #84 (permalink)  
Old 04-07-2011, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldred
Propylene has been around a long time and some places have promoted it as a welding gas but that simply is not true, not by a long shot. Propylene is hotter than LP and can be used for brazing but the flame chemistry is wrong for welding steel and it will not do so, anyone who has tried should be able to attest to that!
Your absolutely correct, You actually need the hydrocarbon in Acetylene to create a fluxing action to be able to weld mild steel..
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Old 04-07-2011, 11:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matt167
I have an Airco Mapp setup I got off Ebay for $40. takes a small Mapp cylinder and has a Mapp regulator. I have a 20CF oxygen tank to feed the oxygen.. Heats up bolts and things just fine. The tip on it that came with it is actually a welding tip, tho I have never tried to gas weld with it.. I don't have a cutting tip/ torch yet... I'v also used propane cylinders with it, and I have the adapter to refill the small cylinders with a 20lb cylinder, and could also get an adapter hose from the sporting goods store to use a 20lb cylinder on it, which might not be a bad idea..

As for the Acetylene shortage. The way I see it is, Magnegas has been around since 2005ish ( quick google search shows refrence to it in that year ). meanwhile I have never heard of it, and thus is probably only marginally profitible. Magnegas spreading a " The End of Acetylene is near " rumor when the lack of Calcium Carbide is only effects a small fraction of Acetylene production.. This is the only way Magnegas can gain a profit margin, because those people would be switched to a magnegas setup even after Acetylene became more available.. Just my .02 cents
Don't know much about the gas you are mentioning? As far as Mapp gas it has been discontinued, the Dupont company in Ontario Canada that made nylon rope product shut down. Their byproduct was what was used to make Mapp Gas. You could weld with Mapp Gas because it was related to the Acetylene family. You will still see products at box stores called Mapp because the trade name was purchased. This isn't Mapp product though and it even discloses this on the label and Bingo you won't have any luck welding with it. Hope this helps. I had worked for Victor Equipment (torches) for about 12 years. Victor and Smith will work on alternatives with a tip change, Some of the Harris kits will too but a lot of the Harris torches are specific to the gas. Acetylene will be back on line shortly, We will all live.. I'll never make commission unless i'm selling everyone Acetylene.. $$$$LOL
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Old 04-07-2011, 11:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TubeTek
Red,
I bought my burning table at an auction, so I didn't get any literature with it. It came with 40 or so of the 2 piece tips, all in a wood block that was marked with tip number and thickness range. Seemed like everything I cut always required some fiddling with speeds and pressures to get a good cut.

I had some parts to cut from 5" thick plate one time, so I decided it'd be best to start with new tips. Went to the local supply house that actually knows something about what they're selling (unlike Airgas here) and when the guy told me what size tips I needed, I thought immediately the size was different than what was marked on my wood tip storage block.

He told me the single biggest problem in burning is that people tend to use tips that are too big for freehand and ones that are too small for machine cutting. I got a couple tips, and he gave me a manufacturer's sheet on the proper size for various thicknesses and machine use. Cut that 5" stuff slicker than you could bandsaw it, and using the cheat sheet for the rest of my cutting made it run without any fiddling around, and with better cut quality than I'd ever gotten in the past.

Any sort of reaction that produces free oxygen would seem to me the last sort of thing one would want to use for gas welding, even if it would produce enough heat. Sort of like trying to weld with an oxidizing flame, which we both know don't work out so great
tips in a cutting machine should last many years if you take care of them. hand cutting users tend to abuse. Check out your torches to see if they are designed as a multifuel use or LP only. Torch height for piercing and cutting is important so you don't roll the top edge (Melt). Have fun with your cutting table I have sold many of them...Hopefully it's making you money everyday.. Your right brand X has some issues right now..
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Old 04-08-2011, 05:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plasmadogg
Fuel mixture is a science it takes a certain amount of Oxygen molecules vs. fuel molecules to crate a neutral flame. Yes you can get a true neutral flame with any gas it science.

I think we are talking about a different definition of a neutral flame. While you are certainly correct that any fuel gas can be adjusted to what we normally call a neutral flame condition, complete combustion without excess Oxygen, it is not quite a truly neutral flame from a chemical standpoint allowing by-products to contaminate the weld and only Acetylene has this unique property.
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Old 04-08-2011, 05:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plasmadogg
As far as Mapp gas it has been discontinued, the Dupont company in Ontario Canada that made nylon rope product shut down. Their byproduct was what was used to make Mapp Gas. You could weld with Mapp Gas because it was related to the Acetylene family.


You will still see products at box stores called Mapp because the trade name was purchased. This isn't Mapp product though and it even discloses this on the label and Bingo you won't have any luck welding with it

Thanks for clearing up that one, there was a discussion about that here not long ago and some insisted that Mapp was still available. I had seen those little throw-away tanks, well one anyway when the plumber was at my son's house, and I had noticed that the stuff did not smell the same (how could a person forget the smell of Mapp! ?) and the burn was different.

As far as welding with the stuff, well yes you could- sort of, but the weld was contaminated and of very poor quality. Because of the quality, or lack of actually, of any weld made with the stuff IMHO it was not a weld quality gas. Certainly the welding characteristics was not anywhere near pure Acetylene and it produced a weld of such inferior quality I personally could see little use for it as a welding fuel, for sure it should not have been used for body panel welding or anything requiring a quality weld.
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Old 04-08-2011, 06:20 AM
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Had to dig out my old welding tech manual to be sure I had the equations right.

A TRUE neutral flame results when Acetylene (C2H2) combines with Oxygen (O2) to form Carbon Monoxide and Hydrogen (C2H2 +O2 = 2CO + H2). This then causes a double reaction that produces 2CO +O2 = 2CO2 and 2H2 +O2 = 2H20 which forms water vapor and Carbon Dioxide. Acetylene is the ONLY fuel gas that can active this truly neutral flame and as a result is the ONLY gas that is really suitable for welding.


The bottom line is that Acetylene will produce this true neutral flame while any other fuel gas will produce an excess of something, what depends on the chemical composition of the gas but those by-products from combustion of the other fuel gasses is why none has Acetylene's unique ability to weld.
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Old 04-08-2011, 07:02 AM
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Found some info on the shortage and propane/propylene regulator settings for different torch tips here..

http://www.bakersgas.com/acetylene-s...formation.html
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