best sb aftermarket head

EXACTLY!!! Whoever is paying the bills this week, gets a good review. Oh, and those are NEVER ringer parts, they are not directly from the factory specifically for the test. They are purchased off the shelf from Summit like you and I can do.

AFR does have the best dam marketing machine I have EVER seen. Better than Harley.

The combination tested are always to show big dollar advertisers in the best light.


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Thicker than a stock casting, causing the push rod to be a little too short, making it ride to the rear of the valve stem, I guess.

Guys,

Sorry my first post on this board has to be all business....

If you couldn't tell JSUP is an avid AFR "hater"....the most relentless I have ever come across in the five or so years I have been active in the public forums. The bottom line is no matter how good a product you make and how much you bend over backwards to please your customers and provide exceptional customer service, you will NEVER make everyone happy. In some respects the better of a job that you do, the more enemies of sorts you are likely to make....those competing against you and those having to justify their own non AFR related purchases.

While I could easily write three pages right how I feel about this thread, this will be a brief post but one to set the record straight.

AFR castings are NOT made in China.....and AFR has never falsified dyno data or manipulated tests and results in an effort to look better. END of story

We dont have to....our cylinder heads speak for themselves, especially the new Eliminator SBC heads which have set a new bar in "out of the box", bolt on 23' head performance. I could provide dozens of links and technical data to back my claims but now isnt the time and place unfortunately.

Some JSUP history....in the last six months or less, JSUP has been banned from no less than two Corvette related websites (message boards such as this). Why....because he made it his mission to manipulate and drag every AFR related thread into the mud and badger every AFR supporter as he has attempted to do to in this thread. The latest board he was thrown off of (less than a month and a half ago) he was a member for over three years. A few months before that he was banned from the Corvette forum for all the same reasons....a board he invested over four years of his life and thirty thousand posts but warnings from the moderators didnt seem to phase him. He couldn't leave an AFR thread alone. Those who think I may be exaggerating, I encourage you to do your own snooping around.

JSUP....this isnt fun and games anymore or psuedo friendly bantoring back and forth about cylinder heads. You are attempting to slander our company's product and reputation in public with lies, half truths (at best), and false allegations.

You know how I found out about this, your latest attempt?....because someone out of the blue reached out to me from this site questioning our product and our integrity and linking me to this thread.

This is not why these message boards were created....they are meant to be a positive thing for our industry and hobby....meant to enhance all of our lives and the overall awareness of what's out there (new products, old products, etc.) but there is an ethical limit if you will, where one's voiced (written) "opinions" become damaging and if there is no proof or hard fact behind them that's when it crosses the line.

Thanks for listening guys

Tony Mamo

Tony, where are your castings made?

Trees

Hi Tony welcome to the board.

As a moderator I want to make a quick statement.

As a manufacturer you do have the right to come on and defend your product which you have done so long as it's not presented as an attempt at just pure advertising.

I want to commend you for posting without the need to directly do any advertising and so long as it remains that way you're more than welcome to stay and you're input would be greatly appreciated.

As for this thread I believe it has run its course, but rather than close it, we will be closely monitoring it and should it continue to be nothing more than a bickering thread it will be locked.

__________________
BSE Racing Engines

1. I'm double checking on the China thing. I trust my sources.

2. On Corvette Forum you posted a dyno sheet showing 100 HP increase from your old heads to your new heads. Somone called the shop that did the dyno test and posted about it. The dyno shop said there was a fuel problem and that the results were skewed as a result and not accurate. Your response was "oh I am so sad that thread was closed because I was just going to put it all to rest". Your fingers must have been broken I guess since you had no problem starting any other threads. I can't search CF anyomre, I'm banned as discussed below, but if you care to get that thread and post a link and let people decide on that, I'll be glad to take the majority opinion on the matter.

3. The test with Wes's car was rigged. You ground the cam, paid for the time, called the media, etc.... I consider it rigged when you ground the cam. End of that story. HOw anyone can say that in a comparision of heads to have one manufacturer so involved as to grind the cam that goes into the test transcends common sense and is an insult to any thinking person.

post 134. The language was changed from my recollection of "I ground the cam" http://www.corvette-guru.com/module...=6558&start=120

Why change the specs of the cam, it makes it suspect. Wes says in the first post "I PICKED THE CAM ALONE" then you say YOU picked the specs, which is it? Sorry, that invalidates anything said before or after that.




I've said it before. Your product performs just fine and is one of the better ones on the market. This all started, once again, when I asked someone to tell my WHY they told someone to spend their hard earned money on your product over any other product. Rather than give a well thought out positive endorsement of your product, they called you.


All true, but for full disclosure:

1. All AFR threads that were negitive were deleted by managment Therefore you will not find the full body of work in context. I encourage you to go look for it however.
2. You are a supporting sponsor of the site and seemingly used that position to get people who disagree with you kicked off
3. See #2, I wasn't the only one banned for such atrocities as questioning a supporting vendor. Anyone who did was banned.


I will not respond anymore, my standard response from now on will be "Under thread of lawsuits I am prohibited from commenting on AFR, however I would consider the following...."


Well then, thank you for making my point. The people making recommendations to buy a product have no clue why and can't substantiate it with anything so they need to go to you to get it. Thanks for the validation.

Clearly it speaks volumes of your customer base that they can pick a product and have no idea why and can not intelligently transfer that information to someone else to make an informed decision. THAT is what this is all about.



Message boards were created for a full open exchange of ideas and of opinions, the places you choose to reference and participate in seem to shun any opinion that is not yours. As evidenced by as you point out, my bannings.

I appreciate the response, I have too many personal important issues to deal with right now, suffice it to say, that's the story take away from it what you want.

Note, all I did here was to ask someone WHY they recommended AFR heads, and it spiraled completely out of control. It has become internet doctrine I guess that we are not allowed to question WHY someone recommends AFR heads. They are immune to questioning I assume.

To the OP, AFR is a fine product, one of the best, however if you buy them, understand WHY not just because someone on the interent said "Buy AFR" or can recite a brochure letter for letter.

Boy’s, Boy’s, This is getting out of control. I did not start an argument about AFR Heads. It’s just an opinion I suggested. Don’t take my word for it. The title mention best aftermarket Heads, and all I wrote “Get AFR Heads”. And now a war has started.

Time and time again, these crummy "what is the best ....." blow up into giant pissing matches. It's so stupid because most of the guys that start these threads are putting the heads on engines intended for the STREET. All of the major aftermarket head manufacturers products are probably within 25 horses of each other and at the UPPER rpm ranges which are rarely seen on the street. Same with cams. Comp Cams has power charts of their Extreme Energy cams. They all make practically the same power, it just comes in at different areas of the power band. Again, I ask.....why can't these threads be moved before they start this kind of crap? For RACE ENGINES, the post might be relevant. I doubt it though because most race engine builders know what they are doing and don't ask loaded questions like this. There is a reason that Brodix, Edelbrock, AFR, Dart, Twisted Flow, Canfield, and the other MAJOR head makers are in business. They make good products that work. The only questions that ever arise is when somebody finds an internet deal and "wants to know if anybody has ever heard of these heads?" If you haven't heard of the manufacturer than they probably aint very good. And if you never heard of the major brands, well, you just haven't done any research. I for one am sick and tired of it and this board is rapidly losing it's appeal to me because of it. Yeah, I know I'll get flamed for saying it. So be it. I just don't care any more about posters to lazy or ignorant to do a forum search, research books, or hey! acutally trying something new and reporting their findings on it. Or guys with book and magazine smarts but no pratcial experience coming off like they invented internal combustion. It's all just so much B.S. anymore. The original post was garbage and should have been moved and/or deleted. The direction the thread went proves it.

Guys,

I just got back from a well needed long weekend so I have a hundred things on my plate right now but I will quickly respond to a few of JSUP's comments


Your "sources" are incorrect and its best to be pretty damn sure when posting a comment as controversial as this one. All of our AFR castings are manufactured in the good ole' US of A......and in fact its the only part of the AFR manufacturing process not actually done in house. They are very high quality extremely accurate castings. Could we save a bunch of money if we went oversea's shopping for castings?....you bet, but we are not willing to compromise the quality of our product.




You need to get your third party false allegations correct....the poster you are quoting claimed the dyno shop said there was ignition problems but like I clarified numerous times prior, we were not discussing peak to peak gains. I clearly stated that sizable power difference in question was past peak and was due to airflow improvements in our new Eliminator heads (versus our former product which was no slouch) and more importantly the large benefit seen from our Eliminator lighter weight valvetrain components (8mm valves and lightweight small diameter dual springs) which allows for alot more accurate valve motion at high RPM (the reduction in power robbing valve float is reduced substantially). Here is the test I referenced....

http://www.airflowresearch.com/eliminator.php

Also, there is once again alot more to the story....the reason the shop said there were any problems was the fact they didnt know whom they were speaking to and was afraid it was a customer that may have just recieved an engine with our older AFR heads who might not be happy knowing he could have seen alot more power with the new Eliminator heads that just started rolling in the door. Also, anyone who has spent a little time around hydraulic roller cams and dyno's can easily recognize valve float clearly evident on the pre-Eliminator dyno curve. Ignition problems cause abrupt huge downward spikes as cylinder pressure goes to zero with no one lighting the match. The curve in question is nosing over due to airflow and not enough valve control (commonly referred to as valve float) which causes the valves to hang open when their suppose to be closed and seriously compromises cylinder pressure (but doesnt kill it completely). Please let this one lie already....


Please....the cam in this engine is a bread and butter XR282 hydraulic roller cam that Comp sells god knows how many a week. Wes and I briefly discussed the cam and the only thing he wanted (which I instructed Comp to "grind" as a custom) was a slightly wider LSA to smooth out the idle and make it more user friendly on the street. Its a 230/236 on a 112 LSA versus a shelf grind 230/236 on a 110 LSA. Your slant on this tries to make the readers think we picked some top secret cam with an off the wall design. Its not unlike what 90% of the people reading this thread is likely to run.

Here is the testing and the thread that JSUP is trying to call bull on....

http://www.corvette-guru.com/module...&mode=0&start=0

And the reason AFR paid for the dyno in the first place stemmed back to the fact we were willing to step up in an attempts to show we were willing to put our money where our mouth was in regards to our product. A situation we referred to as the Pepsi challenge which arose from your continued bashing on the Corvette forum without a shred of evidence or anything concrete. We went to that dyno not knowing how the results would look after the smoke cleared and laid it on the line. Then Car Craft expressed an interest in covering the story of a heavily ported stock fuelie head versus the new AFR Eliminators (old school versus new school) complete with track results with both sets of heads. The other head in the test will not be featured in the story but added to the drama of the testing while we were there.



Typical bait and switch tactic where your trying to look objective when its clear how you really feel about our product and anyone that supports it. It simply kills you to see anyone say a positive thing about our product without having a full blown scientific explanation. Even when members claim to have switched to our brand from one of our competitor's and have gone notably faster at the track thats not enough "proof" and is quickly dismissed by you, yet you never have a shred of evidence to prove otherwise....its always here say and shaky third party testimonials and "that doesnt prove anything....maybe you would have went even faster with Brand XYZ".




For the record, I was not friendly nor did I know personally any of the moderators on either forum that banned you. You got yourself kicked off by destroying countless cylinder head/AFR related threads. Anyone who is willing to take the time to look will clearly see those are the facts. For that matter, the last board you got booted from, the owner of that site has known and spoken to you for a number of years. He hesitated till he got continued complaints from other members of the board that your actions and trying to take control of every thread was very much a negative for them. I wasnt even a sponsor on that board nor was I a member till you forced me to become one to combat your continued AFR crusade.

I dont have time to continue to pick apart your post....but I stongly encourage you to get your facts and ducks in a row before you hit send.

Better yet just leave it alone....let the people promote whatever they want and you can promote what ever flavor you like. Why should it matter to you in the first place?

We pour our heart and soul into our products and we are a very honest and ethical company. Anyone that truly knows the people involved and the product we produce will vouch for us. Not to mention our customer service is one of the best in the industry....

Just let it be....life is too short.

-Tony

TONY, thank you Sir.

I had the opportunity to meet you a couple years ago,
and some people just give you a "good feeling" when you are around them.
I believe you are a man of integrity.

Thanks again, Tony.


As for Jsup,
I have had him on my ignore list for a long time,
and his posts don't show on my page.
Wonder why?