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Old 05-06-2013, 11:12 AM
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SHP 400ci block questions.

Hello everybody,

As I have some multiple questions on my engine project let me for introduce myself. I'm Peter, 32 years and living in the Netherlands (Europe). I already have my '81 Corvette for 11 or 12 years and have made it better and better by a body off restauration and other aftermarket parts.
To view what I've been up to the last 10 years you can see the body off in progress (as an ongoing story) on this page:

Original L81 engine pic's.. - Corvette Action Center - Corvette Forum

But for my lasted project I bought a nice Dart SHP 400ci block from ebay. It's really good looking (if I may say so) as it only has some warming up time on it.
The engine was originally assembled for use with a blower but they sold the entire engine in pieces. The engine already has all the work done on it (haven't checked it) like the crack bore is checked, deck is checked for squarness but still the original height. This is the ebay text to make it myself easy.
[quote]You are bidding a Dart SHP small-chevy block with 4.125" 400 bores. The engine was assembled, demonstrated, and then crated but the car was cancelled. This block has test time only! The bores were torque-plate honed to 4.127". The decks have been cleaned and the surface corrosion in the coolant passages has been neutralized since the picture was taken. Included and installed are: oil filter adapter, brass freeze plugs and pipe plugs, cam bearings and Clevitte Tri-Metal HX series bearings which are .001 additional clearance. [/qoute]





I also bought other parts that were used on this engine like a ARP headstud kit (and as a surprice gift the Cloyes double roller timing kit.



Ati super damper



Part of the deal the SFI approved flexplate and Sealed Power Hellfire piston rings.



From another ebay auction I have a new Milodon 31506 oilpan with Milodon pickup. From summit I have a Mellings standard pressure and volume pump with Milodon short style waterpump. (still waiting in the states for transport).

I also have back home a set of CompCams full roller ultra pro magnum 1.6 rockers.

So that is what I have right now.
What I sure know I want.
- Crankshaft: Callies compstar 2 piece RMS
- Connecting rods: Forged I or H beams (don't know brand)
- Pistons: Forged (don't know brand)
- Piston rings: Sealed power hellfires came with the engine but thinking about buying Total seal piston gapless rings.
- Lifters: Morel 5315
- Pushrods: don't know
- Camshaft: don't know but something similar to compcams XR264 (212, 218 @ 0.050").
- Heads: I already have a set of Dart Iron Eagles with 72cc chamber and 180cc runners but maybe want to upgrade to Dart Pro 1 with around the same cc chamber and maybe bigger runners?
- Intake. Stock L81 alu intake or something better that will fit under the hood with quadrajet and stock intake (have around 1" clearance right now).
- Carb: Quadrajet E4ME carb I already have with 750cfm upgraded to 800cfm.
- Exhaust. Stainless works long tube headers, already have a 2.5" stainless exhaust with x-pipe and Dynomax Ultra mufflers.

Vette total weight is around 3500 LBS. Rear end it a 3.07 with 700R4 transmission. Rear end is already upgraded to take the punishment and the 700R4 will also be beefed up, haven't thought about the converter.

Additional things. We have heigh fuel prices for regular fuel (89 in the US) we pay around 1.70euro/ liter that is 6.42 euro's/gallon. It's a 95 street car with 5% strip / german highway. As we have polution checks every two years and I want the engine to appear stock (L81) so the electronic quadrajet will remain functional I don't need a big cam. I need engine vacuum for my brakes and headlights also without it the ECM will go crazy.

Static compression needs to be around 10:1 and dynamic compression max 8.2:1. I want to get the maximum out of the engine. Rpm will almost never rev above 5 to 6000.
I know most parts are overkill but I don't car

So the questions I have.
- cam bearings with 0.001 additional clearance (still need to measure this!) can I keep them or is this only for blower engines?
- any thoughts about the heads as above .500 lift isn't something for me I want a good bottom up breathing heads.
- still need to check the other cam manufacturers for possible cams also found jonescams on the net.

Every comment and idea is welcome. This is a (I think) 3 to 4 year project so take your time

Greetings Peter

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Old 05-06-2013, 04:04 PM
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I think you need a goal ? I have an 81 Vette and I couldnt stand the 205 RWHP.
First: there is a big difference between a 5,000 rpm engine and 6,000 RPM.The exhaust system can bea problem on that car,what transmission cross member do you have in the car,or are you using side pipes?
Are you going to use a raised hood?How strict is the emission testing?Why do you want a "callies" crank? very expensive,usually used in high output engines.how much power do you plan on making?
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Old 05-06-2013, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peer81 View Post
Rear end is a 3.07.
We have pollution checks every two years.
I need engine vacuum for my brakes and headlights also without it the ECM will go crazy.

Static compression needs to be around 10:1 and dynamic compression max 8.2:1. I want to get the maximum out of the engine. Rpm will almost never rev above 5 to 6000.

So the questions I have.
- any thoughts about the heads as above .500 lift isn't something for me I want a good bottom up breathing heads.
I'm confused. The original L81 was a 350 using 8.2:1 static compression ratio, a computer-controlled Quadrajet and a short cam using lift of 0.381"/0.402" and 0.050" tappet lift duration of 196/204 ground on a 113 degree centerline, making 190 brake horsepower.

Now, you're contemplating building a large cube (373 with a 3.484" crank) or (401 with a 3.750" crank) or (428 with a 4.000" crank) motor to replace the wimpy L81 motor.

How will the motor be able to pass emissions tests with an aftermarket camshaft?

How do you plan to use 10.0:1 static compression ratio and use a short cam and still make realistic cylinder pressure for use with pump gas? How are you going to match the 3.07 gear with a long cam that it will take to match up with the 10.0:1 SCR? .........10.0:1 makes no sense to me, particularly with iron heads. Did I read this whole thing wrong?
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Old 05-06-2013, 08:40 PM
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You'd be surprised how easy it is to pass an emission test with a big cam. It won't run too well but you can get them to fast pass. Btdt. 10:1 is a little high for iron heads but its been done fairly often with vortex heads on a 350, it's not super easy but it is doable on pump premium.

The stock quadrajet is going to be a royal pain in the *** to tune, but if you insist on it good luck. If you need to keep the stock exhaust manifolds too then I would look at dropping to 9.5:1 compression as the exhaust and the carb will really make getting a good consistent tune very hard to do. 9.5:1 is more tolerant of a slightly off tune and you won't lose much power at all.

Your stock appearing requirements are killing you but I'm sure you're aware of that. Go with a good steel thin ring pack for some easy power and make sure your assembly and clearances are spot on. Port all your oil passages, smooth drain back, clean up the bowls in the heads, good quench, a good ignition, all little things that will help make a difference in your restricted build.

Not engine related but a higher stall will help a lot too.

To make big power with a stock look ALL the details count.
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Old 05-06-2013, 09:48 PM
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we need to hear a purpose for the car before we get a higher stall converter,it is a corvette,and it might be a road car? Exhaust needs attention on those cars.The 81 Corvette only made 160 HP.it was the lowest HP rating ever,not counting 53/54
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Old 05-07-2013, 05:27 PM
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In random order...

The purpose is this. It's a street car for 95% and the other 5% are no dragraces but only some trackdays. The problem right now (as you know) is that the stock 350ci isn't enough, even not to keep up with my friends '86 not even talking about C5's or C6's. I don't want to be next to a BMW at the trafficlights wondering if it's a 318 or a 325 etc etc. I first had the idea to make a nice 383 but when I came across this engine I was thinking why not.
I don't care about high reving engines. Let's say 6000 rpm is enough for me it's torque I'm looking for.

A friend also said 10:1 static is to high on regular gas so the 9.5:1 is noted!

The problem I make for myself is that I want to keep the stock hood and carb. The exhaust manifolds will go and I already have a stainless 2.5" exhaust system behind the stock exhaust manifolds all the way to the rear bumper only an x-pipe in between no cat. converters. So I think if I change the stock manifolds for aftermarket long tube headers this would really open up the exhaust. Maybe 3" would be better for a 400ci, I don't know?

I think the biggest problem I have is that I need a raised intake for this engine to perfectly work but the room is very limited to do this (if even possible).

Passing emissions isn't a big problem sofar. I think if I would go with a big cam with big overlap then emissions would be a big problem. As I see it I don't need high rpm's and the torque band to move up the rpm range so sticking with a smaller cam well give more useable torque for traffic use and will be more emissions friendly. At this moment with the stock engine I can have maximal 4.5% polution (NOx I think) and last time it was 1.2% so I have some room to play.

For the gear ratios. With the 700R4 first gear is 3.06 with a 3.07 diff makes 9.4 total. This equals a 3.78 rear end for the first gear from a TH400 (2.48). Or am I seeing this the wrong way?

Sorry I don't understand the question about the 10:1 static compression in relation to the cylinder pressure and pump gas? Maybe I overlooked something?

The power I want isn't really to goal more the fun of building an engine the best way I can and learning along the way so to say. But say between 450 and 500hp would be a nice target.

The problem "we" have is that all the parts need to go over the atlantic ocean. Transport for a callies crank or a chinees crank are all the same so the prices for the two are much closer together overhere then in the states. If something is wrong with the chinees crank am I going to send it back and pay the extra $$$ for transport, No thank you! That is way the Callies really is overkill but I don't read a single bad story about a Callies crank on the net compared to other cranks so I'm willing to pay more.

So are you saying with the intake as a limiting factor there is no need to go to alu heads like the Pro 1's and stick with the Iron Eagle 180cc's? Or alu heads will still be an advantage above the iron heads?

Btw. I'm not an engine builder so if you see problems in this setup please point them out before I make a mistake

Greetings Peter
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Old 05-07-2013, 06:08 PM
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here is my idea,start with this or do something totally different,,,
build a 421:
buy a kit with crank/rods/pistons
use AFR 195 heads(aluminum)
I would say a cam thats 108 X 108 (icl and lda) 230 ish duration and 550 lift,non split duration
10:1 CR
1 3/4 primary tube headers,with full 3 inch exhaust with X pipe
Intake from a 1984 Corvette( or edelbrock replacement)
edelbrock injectors for that exact intake,
GM throttle bodies that are modified for dry use.
This intake will flow ok but more important,fits under the hood,looks Corvette official,way more torque than that carb that needs drowning.
the dual quad look is really nice.


carb intakes that fit
Holley street dominator=poor choice
edelbrock street master= poor choice
maybe a first design torker,,,,fair choice at best
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Old 05-07-2013, 07:02 PM
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Maybe I can help out by listing the results of a few 400's that I've DynoSimmed.....

Profiler 195 aluminum heads, 2.02/1.60
10.22:1 static compression ratio
750 carb on an Edelbrock Performer RPM intake manifold, part no. 7104 for Quadrajet. Will not fit under stock Corvette hood, so do some surgery and install a riser on the hood or lose 80 HORSEPOWER with a shorter intake. You might be able to keep the stock hood profile and use a blow-through carb bonnet like the turbo guys use and mount the air cleaner in a remote location out toward the front of the car with large-diameter ducting hose. Surf the net and find the lowest profile bonnet you can. I would want a 14" x 4" filter element at the minimum. (176 square inches of filter area)
http://www.superiorairflow.com/
Some fellows will suggest a low-profile 427 Corvette filter base like used in the late 60's. Other fellows who have used them will tell you that air flow is cut off with them. I don't know one way or the other, but would do the bonnet, hose thing if it were my 'Vette.
Large tube headers (1 3/4") through the mufflers.
Iskenderian hydraulic roller cam, part no. 201272, installed retarded 4 degrees on these 0.050" tappet lift numbers.....
IVO (-3.5)
IVC (48.5)
EVO (45)
EVC (9)
Makes 500 hp @5500, 506 ft/lbs torque @4500
BMEP 190.3 lbs @4500

Edelbrock E-Tec 200 aluminum heads 2.02/1.60
10.5:1 static compression ratio
same carb, intake and headers.
CompCams hydraulic roller Mutha-Thumpr part no. 12-601-8. Needs min. 2500 stall converter. Installed retarded 4 degrees on these 0.050" numbers....
Rough idle, makes big rump-rump
IVO (11.5)
IVC (43.5)
EVO (52.5)
EVC (16.5)
Makes 470 hp @6000, 483 ft/lbs torque @4500
BMEP 181.6 lbs @4500

Dart Iron Eagle Platinum 200 2.02/1.60
9.50:1 static compression ratio
same carb, intake and headers.
CompCams 12-246-3 flat tappet hydraulic, installed retarded 5 degrees on these numbers....
IVO (4)
IVC (46)
EVO (47)
EVC (9)
Makes 500 hp @6000, 500 ft/lbs torque @4500
BMEP 188.0 lbs @4500

ProComp aluminum 210 CNC ported by Weingartner
10.5:1 static compression ratio
same carb, intake and headers
Crane 119571 hydraulic roller, installed 4 degrees retarded on these numbers...
IVO (8)
IVC (42)
EVO (48)
EVC (10)
Makes 518 hp @6000, 521 ft/lbs torque @4500
BMEP 196.1 lbs @4500

Dart Iron Eagle Platinum 215
9.8:1 static compression ratio
same carb, intake and headers
CompCams 12-430-8 hydraulic roller, installed 4 degrees retarded on these numbers....
IVO (2)
IVC (42)
EVO (42)
EVC (4)
Makes 522 hp @6000, 516 ft/lbs @5000
BMEP 191.3 lbs @5000

Use the BMEP figures to compare cylinder pressure.

Last edited by techinspector1; 05-07-2013 at 07:31 PM.
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Old 05-07-2013, 07:09 PM
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great sims Richard.The performer wont fit under his hood.
do you know if the old torker is short,I dont remember
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Old 05-07-2013, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinniekq2 View Post
here is my idea,start with this or do something totally different,,,
build a 421:
buy a kit with crank/rods/pistons
use AFR 195 heads(aluminum)
I would say a cam thats 108 X 108 (icl and lda) 230 ish duration and 550 lift,non split duration
10:1 CR
1 3/4 primary tube headers,with full 3 inch exhaust with X pipe
Intake from a 1984 Corvette( or edelbrock replacement)
edelbrock injectors for that exact intake,
GM throttle bodies that are modified for dry use.
This intake will flow ok but more important,fits under the hood,looks Corvette official,way more torque than that carb that needs drowning.
the dual quad look is really nice.


carb intakes that fit
Holley street dominator=poor choice
edelbrock street master= poor choice
maybe a first design torker,,,,fair choice at best
Vinnie, your motor with a RPM and Q-Jet makes 529 hp @6000 and 541 ft/lbs @4500. NICE
With TPI, 500 CFM, 389 hp @5000 and 515 ft/lbs @2500

Last edited by techinspector1; 05-07-2013 at 07:58 PM.
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Old 05-07-2013, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinniekq2 View Post
great sims Richard.The performer wont fit under his hood.
do you know if the old torker is short,I dont remember
I know Vinnie, but you see, I have absolutely no respect for sheet metal or sheet fiberglass or any other material that gets in the way of making horsepower. Most of my projects never got paint, I just didn't care how they looked as long as they hauled axe.
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Old 05-07-2013, 08:15 PM
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Richard,look at my car,lol.I have a scoop that when combined with my rear view mirror blocks the center of my windshield.
any idea what the total flow is for the 84 Vette intake manifold?I hate to leave HP on the table too...The Vette needs engine bay ventilation and fresh air off the windshield is good,or an L-88 hood,od saw a hole like you said
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Old 05-07-2013, 08:17 PM
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The 389 HP is weak. I was aiming for over 400 @ 5500. The torque is great and would have no problems with 3.07 gears.
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Old 05-07-2013, 09:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinniekq2 View Post
The 389 HP is weak. I was aiming for over 400 @ 5500. The torque is great and would have no problems with 3.07 gears.
Upped the CFM to 700, presto, 405 hp. 520 torque.
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Old 05-09-2013, 01:25 PM
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Hello Vinnie and Richard, thanks for the answers, opinions and sims!

But I do think we're at a different level, I want to build a engine that fits the car and you build the car around the engine. If engine power is the most important then that is the way to go but I still think the other way around.
I'll check the sims combo's and go from there!

Greetings Peter
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