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Old 03-08-2011, 09:49 PM
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Sikkens color build pluss question no amatures please!!

I own and operate a restoration and speedshop(just my wife and I now I retired).I had a shop with 10 employees but the econemy took its toll on my customers I've been painting since the 60s pearls, candies', flakes,flames, laquers, enamel, 1 stage&clear,BC/CC,Water base,gold leaf ,silver leaf, painted 1 national champion, Two riddler award winners,And 100s of concorse cars. No brag ( Theres probebly a lot of painters that are a lot better then me in little back water towns that never had the brakes I did. The reason I wrote this is becouse I've read a lot of realy bad advice on this site from people who have no idea what their talking about!!! And the few guys that realy know what their talking about are out numbered 10 to one I need the one not the 10s please. My question: I havent used Sikkens for many years I like PPG, House of color , Metal flake [Its brand name NOT THE GLITTERY THINGS IN THE PAINT FOR YOU THAT DONT PAINT] ,And the new hot hues. I have a customer that wanted the cheep way out , he has a relative at Sikkens! any way Im doing a concorse 65 chevy Impala convertable 396 SS all body work is done! and I let all repairs Shrink for a month (a skim of mud here and there or a little red PPG spot putty on small lead pits or my file scratches) then I primed 3 coats with good flash time gray oxide PPG let it shrink one week shot a red oxide ppg primer guide coat and blocked found no low or high spots it looked realy good! I then wet sanded with 400 Reprimed (the same)and let it shrink two weeks and wet sanded 600 I then rubbed the whole car and body parts down with a fine 3m scuff pad (It gives the primer a gloss so you can see any imperfections just like looking down the side of a painted car)its an old painters trick ! I then wet sanded with 400 to get ready for "Sikkens White non tinted color build pluss CB primer surfaser sealer" washed parts and car body dried, degreased dried and tacked down shot hood, trunk, rear bezzles, & fenders exactly like speck sheet instructed let dry over night came in the next day and saw color variances from color of body matireal (Like pink where I used red spot putty or red hardener or light blue where I used blue hardner) The color build pluss sprayed good layed down nice&smooth stuck like a magnet called Sikkens the teck man at sikkens said to spray it again with three wet coats and it will cover (three more wet coats is a lot of primer sealer) has any one out there had this problem? cant one wet coat cover The little bit of bleed through? And most importent is the color coat of sikkens BTLV going to bite the color build pluss and bleed ??? Sikkens mixed to match a PPG glamor color which is almost transparant any one of you that ever shot glamor know what Im talking about !!! I wrote all this so I wouldnt have to answer a lot of questions forever! Another question is whats the best clear for high gloss thats compatable with sikken BTLV single stage color I would rather use sikkens (I dont like to mix brands )But I dont know the gloss of sikkens!! If its realy high gloss please sugjest it! But if you used a high gloss clear thats compatable I'll try it on some samples! Please again if you dont know what your talking about dont wast my time And dont sirch the internet and send some cra* you downloaded like a lot of you do If you give me bogus info (I'LL FIND YOU AND PAINT YOU LOL). I dont listen to most teck guys (factory people) you hand em the gun and a lot of em cant paint!!!!! My spell check isnt working so excuse me if I miss spelled any thing and many thanks for even reading this book

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Old 03-09-2011, 06:49 AM
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I've been painting for 35yrs and when I have a question about paint theres only one person I trust for advice on my most important work....Give him a call at 404-307-9740 ask for Barry ...You'll have your answear in couple min and he'll be happy to help. and if he's not sure about a particular product he'll say so and hook you up with someone that does.

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Old 03-09-2011, 10:39 AM
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This is not about that paint system, but about the way I would handle the situation in the future.

I have been painting for others for about 40 years, and I have used all of the major paint systems... except those that only recently arrived. I just had a very similar circumstance. A guy came to me with paint from a system I had not used before. He had spent some semi-serious $$$ on paint, so I told him I would use it to keep him from wasting it. Boy was that a mistake!

I had used this companies products for many years, but abandoned them in the late '80s due to the fact they caused increased manhours. This was a different line of their paint, and acted completely different from what the other had! (The old one was superior in several ways.) I even enlisted the coaching of a guy who used this system daily.

In the end, we had to switch back to my "old reliable" system, to fix the job! I compromised with him on the cost... which is something I cannot do very often if I am to stay in the trade.

I will NEVER let a customer dictate the type of paint I use again. It just isn't worth it.... unless you like frustration! I guarantee my work for as long as you own it, so you can see I must have the confidence that comes from years of refining what products, and how I use them, to paint a project.

My advise would be to learn from this. I will add that in the past I had a product that would cause/allow stains to be released from filler products. In the end, I never found a solution to this, though I tried multiple sealers and catalyzed paints to stop the bleeding.

If something ain't working all of the time.... get rid of it! Good luck.
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Old 03-09-2011, 03:03 PM
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sealing sealer,rediculuss(hope I spelled that right)!

I went in today shot My PPG sealer on half of an area that had the same colored materials underneath then I shot the sikkens sealer over the entire area! Where I sprayed the PPG sealer on the first half and covered with Sikkens sealer no bleed but on the second half with just the Sikkens sealer it blead through! Thats rediculuss if you have to use sealer befor you can use sealer!!! (Sikkens is not cheep my customer just got a good deal becouse a relative works for Sikkens) I used Sikkens years ago it was a very good product. I'll try to refrase my question: I used 3 wet coats of Sikkens color build pluss (White primer surfaser sealer) it bit into my primer layers and I had a bleed through of slight color vareations of a few of my lower layered areas like a scim coat of filler with blue hardner or red spot putty(like a very faint blue or pink) A Sikkens Teck told me to spray 3 more wet coats and it will cover (thats a lot of sealer)if any one sprayed this product before will 1 wet coat do; and when I spray the Sikkens BTLV single stage color coat is it going to bite the Sikkens sealer and pick up the bleed my Sikkens color coat is transparrent like candy any bleed will ruin the paint job no mater how slight (some judge will see it). I need the white for the final effect (like white under candies). I also need to know if Sikkens has a high gloss clear< or if you used this product and Know of a compatable clear product with a high gloss I'll get a small amount and try it! (Again I'll say it if you have no experiance with this paint dont sugjest anything it will just be wasting my time) I could use PPG sealer surfaser and then shoot the white and then the color and then the clear (THATS TOO MANY LAYERS OF MATERIAL!!! And hind sight from other mistakes people made doesnt help (although I do like reading them so still send them in As old as I am I can learn from any one)I agreed to use the Sikkens becouse when I used it years ago it was top of the line !! !! But now I dont know If any one can help me out there great but if not I 'm going my own route and SH*& can this stuff THANK AGAIN if any one skipped the origanel question please go back and read it

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Old 03-09-2011, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremyb
interesting. one of the biggest shops in the upstate, where i live, has been using sikkens for over 10 years now, i've used it for the last 7. They do 50-60 cars a week, using the colorbuild system and have NEVER heard of this.

might have to have a chat with my rep.
Yeah, hard for me to believe too. I have relatives in the Nashville area that have been using Sikkens for over 20 years running 2 booths daily and have never had problems. Sikkens is a top shelf product. I used Colorbuild 13 years ago and never had problems. The white was thin and took more to cover, but most white sealer seems to be that way. BUT, I never sealed over bare bodywork either and SURE don't use red SPOT PUTTY!
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Old 03-09-2011, 09:05 PM
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so after re reading your first post again, you are using WHITE sealer over filler with red hardener and red laquer putty?

not sure i know of a paint system that WONT bleed over this stuff down the road if it doesn't do it right away.
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Old 03-09-2011, 09:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremyb
interesting. one of the biggest shops in the upstate, where i live, has been using sikkens for over 10 years now, i've used it for the last 7. They do 50-60 cars a week, using the colorbuild system and have NEVER heard of this.

might have to have a chat with my rep.
Its not the product its the company they fed me wrong information Thats what makes me so mad!!!!! If they gave me the right information I would not have had this problem!!! if they mixed me solid color paint like a bump shop it wouldnt bother me (you wouldnt see the blush) Sikkens said they could mix a special color (glamor) Tansparent like a candy, and use the white primer sealer as the base for this special PPG color (like white under candy tangerine in the light you can see a flees turd through it) but the bleed is very slight most people dont see it till I point it out BUT some one will! and I dont want to take a chance of it getting wose if the sikkens color bites the sealer!! This is not a bump shop car!!!I have two years into this car ! Actual hours about 900! there are no fenders on the market (People think 66 Impala is the same its not) I had to get fenders from around the country cut 3 up and put em together to make one and cut 2 others up to make one ! I ve only got maybe 1 pint of mud on the whole car and a 1/4 tube of spot putty the rest is dolly ,hammer, weld and lead, the speeker slots on the dash were rotted away and the cowl under the windshield from corner post to corner post was rotted away. I had to fabricate that and it has to look perfect I had to take pictures of inpsection crayon marks and then put them back in crayon so they matched the origenals, over spray has to be in the right places, The paint is special, it was special order when car was built. I dont think you read my original question or I would not have had to right all this! I dont mind now though I got tired of the dog
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Old 03-09-2011, 11:28 PM
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This thread has no technical merit that I see. This has hit the Mods forum, a couple of you guys need to read out guidelines, P.J., you are a hares' breath from a suspension. Lose the name calling and the attitudes, school yard tactics are not allowed. If there are any good points here to make, make them or this is hitting the dump tomorrow. Otherwise, I will take the time to separate the crap from the good points, If there are any to separate. Spell check is on the bottom right of your posts.
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Old 03-10-2011, 12:59 PM
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Maybe I can clear few things up here like the epoxy question, since I talked to him on the phone, last night.

He explained step by step from start to finish of his procedure in a very detailed way as I cannot give an answer to a problem without knowing all the facts and he did a great job of explaining right down to the minutes.
When he got to then, I took Sikkens Color build, I said something like oh f-----, I stopped him and said let me tell you one of the two things that happened. Wrinkling or Bleeding, I also stated any of my products could have done the same thing.

Now what another company customer service said to do also brought out a few four letter words, if I recall but that is here nor there as far as Iím concerned.

To explain the epoxy question that has everyone a little perplexed, let me explain.
This bleeding is something we rarely see anymore since the rash we had in mid 80ís to mid 90ís when basecoat was entering the market, it was a major problem and a lot of you may not have been around then but it was a combination of filler resin and the peroxide used in the hardener and figured out later, one of the UV's used in the clear coat.

Once it starts bleeding like he has, if you shoot epoxy over it, there is only a 60-70% chance the epoxy will stop the bleeding because the peroxide gets into the epoxy before it dries and I explained that to him along with, it will not re-bleed setting in a shop but if it does bleed, it will show up one week to three months of being in the sun. Nothing else will hold a bleed down or if it does you are just awful lucky.

My answer was same now as back in the problem days, spot sand to the glaze or filler and then apply epoxy over the raw filler and work up from their.
Easier to take primer off in the problem spots now, then after painted.

Hope this helps, I wanted no part of this but it did look like there was some confusion on the epoxy issue and that was my fault.
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Old 03-10-2011, 01:22 PM
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to clarefy

I used red hardener on the body only ! I did not shoot the body yet!! On the parts I painted, I used blue hardener because I was out of red! Thus the very faint blue bleed! the glaze I used was red on these parts on scratches and small pits! They where prepped primed & prepped,primed & prepped, ETC,ETC, Sikkens tech. data sheet says "description: Colorbuild Plus is a fast drying undercoat system". "colorbuild plus can be applied direct to metal when repairing small areas for car repair and can be used as either a primer surfacer or wet on wet primer sealer". suitable substrates: " -existing finishes" (That to me means what ever OEM finish is on the vehicle, after prepping that includes LACQUER !!!) "- direct to steel,-direct to galvineal,-direct to aluminum,-OEM ecoat,washprimer EMCF and washprimer 1k CF, -fiberglass gellcoat (polyester laminants),-POLYESTER BODY FILLERS-polysurfacers ". Wow you can spray it right on body fillers!How about that!! Now I know some people said forget about the tech. sheet but I still use them! It does not say any thing about sealing with 2k or any other sealer before sealing with sikkens sealer (That sounds ridiculous) any one out there agree!! Because some one or maybe two typed that. Any way I got mad! And I owe some apologies: I'm not mad now, I'm listening to rockabilly and I'm sorry! For some of the things I said!! If any one agrees with me say so {oh not on the apology, on the rest } )
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Old 03-10-2011, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryK
Maybe I can clear few things up here like the epoxy question, since I talked to him on the phone, last night.

He explained step by step from start to finish of his procedure in a very detailed way as I cannot give an answer to a problem without knowing all the facts and he did a great job of explaining right down to the minutes.
When he got to then, I took Sikkens Color build, I said something like oh f-----, I stopped him and said let me tell you one of the two things that happened. Wrinkling or Bleeding, I also stated any of my products could have done the same thing.

Now what another company customer service said to do also brought out a few four letter words, if I recall but that is here nor there as far as Iím concerned.

To explain the epoxy question that has everyone a little perplexed, let me explain.
This bleeding is something we rarely see anymore since the rash we had in mid 80ís to mid 90ís when basecoat was entering the market, it was a major problem and a lot of you may not have been around then but it was a combination of filler resin and the peroxide used in the hardener and figured out later, one of the UV's used in the clear coat.

Once it starts bleeding like he has, if you shoot epoxy over it, there is only a 60-70% chance the epoxy will stop the bleeding because the peroxide gets into the epoxy before it dries and I explained that to him along with, it will not re-bleed setting in a shop but if it does bleed, it will show up one week to three months of being in the sun. Nothing else will hold a bleed down or if it does you are just awful lucky.

My answer was same now as back in the problem days, spot sand to the glaze or filler and then apply epoxy over the raw filler and work up from their.
Easier to take primer off in the problem spots now, then after painted.

Hope this helps, I wanted no part of this but it did look like there was some confusion on the epoxy issue and that was my fault.
Thanks Barry: I didn't want to use your name!!! I realy thought more painters here would have come to my side!!!

Last edited by painted jester; 03-10-2011 at 01:35 PM.
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Old 03-10-2011, 03:38 PM
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Hey Dinger, did you delete all the posts before I posted or was I not paying attention when I posted, I was trying to get to this all day, so may be my fault.

The reason I even posted was to clarify things, no it looks like I'm talking to myself because I'm babbling on about something not even on here.

Deleting my post would fit right in and make me feel a littler better.
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Old 03-10-2011, 04:03 PM
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I sent them to the dump, let me know if there is something I should not have sent there, also corrected your ph# so the old battle axe doesn't get anymore phone calls.
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Old 03-10-2011, 04:04 PM
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Akzo Nobel in europe

Akzo Nobel are the producers of Sikkens! I made a call today to one of their European offices : I talked to one of the engineers there, He told me the bleed is acceptable. Its an acceptable %'age, if you use colored sealer it helps! (that blew my mind)Then he said they guaranty the paint!!! And my shop that only does 1 maybe 2 cars a year this may be the only one I'll ever have.(Yea I'll never have this stuff in my shop again!! I just cant take the chance ! I called Barry to chat he mentioned it could be 1 in 20,000 cars (I agree) For some people that use this product and never had this problem It's probably the best paint in the world!! That's why a lot of these guys ganged up on me !! I don't think they ever had a problem with it!,so naturally its the painters fault! When one of them puts a lot of work into a car, and their the acceptable %'age they'll feel and talk just like me. And about the posts that where taken out (I became so mad), I could not type I was skipping keys and making spelling mistakes that when I reread them I was embarrassed and I apologize again
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Old 03-10-2011, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dinger
I sent them to the dump, let me know if there is something I should not have sent there, also corrected your ph# so the old battle axe doesn't get anymore phone calls.
Sorry about last night, I don't think you lost much! I'm on mozilla now Key board works fine and so does spell check It says you spelled dinger wrong
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