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Old 05-15-2005, 09:43 PM
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Silver Metallic blotching

I was shooting a project Sat. using Nason Silver base with the large metallic and after shooting the 2nd coat,still had quite a bit of blotching (dark/light spotting,and YES,I shook & stirred WELL.). I ended up doing an "X'ing" pattern after line painting to get it to even out right. I shot the first coat with the standard 1:1 reduction and thought it might be on the "thin" side and went with about 10% less red. on the 2nd. Same results.
I'm not a big fan of their base's but it was on hand and needed a silver base for some Kandy. This is the first time I've shot their Silver on a large panel and is it ME or does this reaffirm my original opinion's on their base's??

Silver Metallic is HARD to shoot right and any advice or trick's would be appreciated by me and other's as well. Mike.

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Old 05-15-2005, 09:52 PM
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The experts here will tell you better, but I believe you must put your final coat on as a mist, on the metalics.

BTW, don't feel bad. I did the same thing with my truck.
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Old 05-16-2005, 05:43 AM
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I think I'd try a drop coat on it and see if it evens out, after your first two coats are applied pull the gun back from the surface and mist on two or three continuous coats with the gun choked down for less material transfer.
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Old 05-16-2005, 06:54 AM
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Thanks guy's.
That's basically what I ended up doing with the X'ing. Backing away and doing a blend/fog type application.
It seem's that when shooting a Silver,It's a "What ever works" to get it to look right. Outback Stakehouse Rule...... No Rule's,Just Right.
It ended up looking great with good coverage,and a nice sparkle under the Kandy.
I believe this is a cause for some people's bad looking Kandy job's as they don't get the BASE right to begin with and the kandy just enhances it.
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Old 05-16-2005, 07:01 AM
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What kind of gun you using? If it's a gravity feed sometimes it's
hard to keep it mixed in the cup. I've had a problem with some of
the paint settling to the bottom between coats where it can't be mixed back
in by shaking. Also what rises to the surface will make a diference if
you spray all of it, that last several drops can be a lot different from
the first. I think this is the downfall of the gravity cup but I'm sure others
will argue that it's not a problem, anyway I like a suction feed cup better for
metalics, I can keep it mixed better. Also as others have said, spraying
too wet will definitly cause the streaking, you have to mist it on for
those silvers.
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Old 05-16-2005, 08:17 AM
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Yep, the drop coat is the ultimate cure if needed. The only problem is of course the added texture. I have also found that the mottling look of flashed basecoat is sometimes an illusion, once cleared it is gone. Do a few test panels and check that theory out.

Brian
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Old 05-16-2005, 08:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR
Yep, the drop coat is the ultimate cure if needed. The only problem is of course the added texture. I have also found that the mottling look of flashed basecoat is sometimes an illusion, once cleared it is gone. Do a few test panels and check that theory out.

Brian
I rarely get any added texture with a drop coat, I think timing and proper reducer selection is key. If the drop coat is going on a surface that is completely flashed off or if the solvent/reducer is to fast then yeah it'll be bumpy for sure.
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Old 05-17-2005, 07:01 AM
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I don't know all the "Pro" terminology but that is basically what I ended up doing on the final coat.
I was using a Gravity feed DeVillblis which I've shot plenty of metallics with before and I keep it agitated as i shoot as well as blow it out after sitting between coats. Considering the lifting I had (again with the same silver base) on the graphic tape pull's,It basically reaffirms my dislike for Nason metallic base's.
Now, on a happier note, The Nason binder I used for the Kandy Koncentrait transport worked very well. Great coverage,no blotching/striping problems,dried perfect. Just a shame to strip the project after much hard work doing the layout. Such is painting.
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Old 05-21-2005, 11:22 PM
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Bee4Me

Next time try turning down the fluid flow, and bring up the pressure slightly, as you move a bit quicker on your passes, instead of backing away from the serface.

I learned this the hard way.....befor I used to do "drop coats" were I was like 12" away from the serface, it did take care of the blotches, but I had adhesion problems.

By keeping the gun destance the same and just moving faster with a bit more pressure and a bit less fluid flow, I've never had blotchy problmes in my metalics............and yes I do use alot of nason, so I know what you mean.

Oh by the way, that same trick works great when doing candies too
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Old 05-22-2005, 01:43 AM
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Thanks. I'll try that next time. The second session went much better.
I did up the air some.
On the Kandy, I've been playing around with it quite a bit (experimenting)
with different mix ratios,rereading my HOK book's and some old vid's I have and came to the conclusion that I've been using less KK than I should.
mrcleaner6 gave me some good tip's on reducing and after playing with that helped as well.
What puzzle's me is the fact that SO many coats are talked about and to get the desired color was killing my tape pull's SO, I went heavier with the KK and got better coverage and darker color faster with less coats and no striping or blotching. I applied at least 7 or 8 previous and ended up with 4 this time around.
Right or wrong,it seem's to work better for me.
I'll get some pic's up after the graphics are finished.
Understand,This has been a total experiment with LOT'S of different techniques and applications so screwing up was a given.
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Old 05-22-2005, 07:09 AM
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Glad to hear things are working well now. One thing that may help with the adhesion would be to catalyze your basecoat with a capfull of clear hardener mixed in per spray-able quart of bc. Although you might be mixing product brands this may help, maybe Barry or someone here with more knowledge could verify. PPG is recommending the bc be catalyzed anytime the clear is going to be heavy and especially on tricoats. If you were putting 7-8 coats of urethane clear on with KK mixed in that was quite a bit of material.
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Old 05-22-2005, 03:30 PM
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I’m not sure “stabilizing” the metallic base coat with hardener will help with the adhesion (it may even shorten your recoat window) but it will help in keeping the “metallics” in place. The metallics tend to want to flow with the clear when you don’t give it enough flash time between the base and clear coat, or if the clear is extra wet on the first pass. Starting with a light/medium coat of clear also helps.


One thing that helps with the tape pulls is mixing the KK in intercoat clear instead of normal clear....I know HOK says not to build intercoat clear more then 4 coats, but after talking to a few lowrider painters who use this method exclusively, for up to 6 coats, I was convinced in giving it a try, and so far no problems. It is easer to spray and less expensive then using topcoat clear. You can also save the left-overs longer since there is no hardener involved.

But like I said, it’s something I recently started to experiment with so if any body has any further input on this kk/intercoat clear method of mixing. It would be great.

Also, I’m not much of a PPG painter so does anybody know if PPG’s intercoat clear (DBC500?) has any build restrictions?
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Old 05-22-2005, 07:27 PM
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Adding hardener to the base actually keeps the recoat window open longer and does help with adhesion between the color and basecoat. Some paint lines need this more than others, Akzo Nobel's Lesinol line is one example where the hardener is a must for extending the recoat time. I'm not a paint engineer or have done any testing, just what I've been told. It sure helps to reduce rock chips though.

DBC500 is the product PPG uses to make the candy for it's radiance system. You can make your own with KK. I've applied 7 coats over metalic base with no problems. PPG recomends you catalyze/activate the basecoat when you are applying this much. Bob
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Old 05-22-2005, 07:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baddbob
Adding hardener to the base actually keeps the recoat window open longer and does help with adhesion between the color and basecoat. Some paint lines need this more than others, Akzo Nobel's Lesinol line is one example where the hardener is a must for extending the recoat time. I'm not a paint engineer or have done any testing, just what I've been told. It sure helps to reduce rock chips though. Bob
You are exactly right on all accounts.
The better resistance to stone chips is a result of the better adhesion.
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Old 05-22-2005, 08:21 PM
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Learned something new

and to think all this time I would avoid stabilizing the base coat thinking it would "cure" as it flashes, and shorten my respray window

Thats why I love this site.........theres nothing like a good place to share and compare ideas
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