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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 09-21-2010, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by cobalt327
I apologize for not crediting you w/the photos...
No apology needed!

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 09-21-2010, 03:08 PM
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heh... AB crawled out of the woodwork before I got to say anythuing about his pictures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
At one time I was interested in doing this to a set of Vortec heads. Then the debate came up about the Vortec deck being thin enough as it is, and would it be wise to "weaken" it more by grooving it.

Before that, I had always been of the opinion that "it might not help but it won't hurt". Now, I don't know if that would be an accurate statement.

Most times, no actual power gains are claimed. What you might hear claimed is better mileage, less octane needed, or more CR allowed before detonation sets in, "cleaner" combustion. But when you read other comments that claim an increase in trap speed or a reduction in ET, that might as well be a claim of more power.

In your case, I would have to say the grooves are not going to be enough- by themselves- to enable you to run that combo at max power total timing, on pump swill- even w/ aluminum heads.
1- groves in the range of about .040" deep should be enough to make a difference and will not compromise the decks on any reasonable cylinder head.

2- it's not really about a HP increase at peak, but about efficiency increases at or below the torque peak

3- AB, correct me if I'm wrong but last we discussed it neither of us had an answer for why Sing was recommending increasing quench distances and I don't know of anyone that has experimental evidence supporting that it helps in any way.

4- I'm not sure that we still have a good explanation for _why_ they work. I have some working theories that it has to do with increasing burn rate so you get more complete combustion faster (which should limit detonation also), all of which does make sense with the documented results, BUT that would also predict that you would need less ignition advance on these setups and from what I've seen that is not the case, they tend to like more advance than without the grooves (I have thoughts on why that is, but I'm not sure I want to discuss it here).
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Old 09-21-2010, 07:34 PM
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WRT to cutting them, I've used everything from a dremel to my Bridgeport, and to be honest, I usually go back to doing them by hand.

I usually end up modifying what I do to suit the specific chamber I'm dealing with but I almost always do 3 converging grooves (and I know that I've sent some wild drawings to AB that I really don't think I'll get to test without a CNC setup...)

Anyway, here are pics of my latest setup, a briggs cylinder head (yea, a flat head, slightly different than a OHV cylinder head but it's the same basic idea). My mower blew a head gasket (really, I don't get how it was supposed to work in the first place briggs never machined the deck surface of the head at all), while I was in there I milled the head, ported it, grooved it, then calculated now much my volume increased from the porting and to increase compression about 10% over stock (you can see that it is actually kind of a crappy casting and this was just a quick job one night)

Original head (arrows are the casting imperfections, the yellow circle is where oil actually ran out when I tried to do a "wet" compression test)


Cutting it on the bridgeport


cut, grooved and ported (yea, the casting wasn't quite even and slightly porous)
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Old 09-21-2010, 07:45 PM
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I imagine those grooves would work rather well in a flat head engine. I'm considering them on my gx200 since its a cheap head to replace. Fire slots are nothing new and are used in a lot of race pistons- but not really in heads... It makes you wonder why its in pistons and not heads.
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Old 09-21-2010, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbolover
I imagine those grooves would work rather well in a flat head engine. I'm considering them on my gx200 since its a cheap head to replace. Fire slots are nothing new and are used in a lot of race pistons- but not really in heads... It makes you wonder why its in pistons and not heads.
Cheaper to replace pistons than heads when you find this is at best a waste of time and at worst a generator of detonation.

Has anybody been to India? What Dr. Singh uses for gasoline makes Mexico's Pemex look like NASA's rocket fuel.

Bogie
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Old 09-21-2010, 08:52 PM
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Or at best you gain power and economy, at worst its a waste of time...
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Old 09-21-2010, 09:43 PM
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Nice work, did you get it running? Results?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverback
...Anyway, here are pics of my latest setup, a briggs cylinder head...

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Old 09-21-2010, 09:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverback
AB, correct me if I'm wrong but last we discussed it neither of us had an
answer for why Sing was recommending increasing quench distances
It goes along with his goal of improving combustion in the end zone.
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Old 09-21-2010, 11:56 PM
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I have just finished researching Singh grooves and all the links posted in this thread and others...in not one single instance was there a gain reported that couldn't be accounted for by simple dyno inaccuracy or repeatability. Anyone who has run a dyno before knows you can have variances of 5% in back to back runs easily. Not to mention cutting 0.040" grooves in the already thin deck of any head is just dumb and provides a crack propagation zone! How many cracks have I seen in exhaust seats extend into the zone located right where those grooves are located...dozens if not hundreds.

I challenge anyone to provide proof of this groove providing any performance enhancing effect beyond the psychological. Why anyone would believe (without proof!) some goof in a backwards country tuning old world engines that he is smarter than the hundreds of years of engineering experience in Europe and North America building the engines he proports to re-engineer is beyond me.

If you do the math you would see that creating grooves in this location will actually slow down flow through that region not speed it up since you are providing a space for the mixture to go, creating a hump would speed flow...not a groove.

If you ask me Mr Singh is a crackpot making money from the locals for hand ground grooves in their heads from people that don't know any better, c'mon guys we are smarter than this.

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Old 09-22-2010, 07:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4 Jaw Chuck
I have just finished researching Singh grooves and all the links posted in this thread and others...in not one single instance was there a gain reported that couldn't be accounted for by simple dyno inaccuracy or repeatability. Anyone who has run a dyno before knows you can have variances of 5% in back to back runs easily. Not to mention cutting 0.040" grooves in the already thin deck of any head is just dumb and provides a crack propagation zone! How many cracks have I seen in exhaust seats extend into the zone located right where those grooves are located...dozens if not hundreds.

I challenge anyone to provide proof of this groove providing any performance enhancing effect beyond the psychological. Why anyone would believe (without proof!) some goof in a backwards country tuning old world engines that he is smarter than the hundreds of years of engineering experience in Europe and North America building the engines he proports to re-engineer is beyond me.

If you do the math you would see that creating grooves in this location will actually slow down flow through that region not speed it up since you are providing a space for the mixture to go, creating a hump would speed flow...not a groove.

If you ask me Mr Singh is a crackpot making money from the locals for hand ground grooves in their heads from people that don't know any better, c'mon guys we are smarter than this.

P.S. I have a great deal on fuel line magnets and glyptol paint for lifter valleys for the first hundred buyers. If the red light is flashing below, you qualify for a special discount...act now!
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Okay, then why do many cars run fireslots in the pistons? This idea doesn't seem much different to me. Pistons may be a better location because they are more easily changed but the concept remains the same.
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Old 09-22-2010, 07:43 AM
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If "fire slot" is in reference to the slots put in the domes of pistons- who runs domes anyway? Unless the domes are huge, there's no real need for fire slots, period, IMO. They are not there to do what the S-grooves do, anyway- the idea in the fire slot is to keep the chamber from being divided by the dome configuration and to allow a pathway for the flame to propagate through.

BBC pistons often will have large, flat "domes"- those are not what I'm talking about here. Think 12:1 small chamber SBC pistons.

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Old 09-22-2010, 07:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
If "fire slot" is in reference to the slots put in the domes of pistons- who runs domes anyway? Unless the domes are huge, there's no real need for fire slots, period, IMO. They are not there to do what the S-grooves do, anyway- the idea in the fire slot is to keep the chamber from being divided by the dome configuration and to allow a pathway for the flame to propagate through.

BBC pistons often will have large, flat "domes"- those are not what I'm talking about here. Think 12:1 small chamber SBC pistons.
I've seen them on flat top pistons too. But they are most common on large domes, extending away from the plug location as you have described.
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Old 09-22-2010, 08:59 AM
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Fireslots are used to prevent separation of the chamber by large compression domes near TDC, they aren't there to "squirt" A/F mixture at the spark plug which is what the Singh groove is supposed to do. Besides unless you have some huge compression ratio with a large dome no one requires fireslots on their pistons, its simply not required and is a bandaid fix for large compression drag engines from the sixties.

I find Singh's recommendation to run increased squish clearances a laugh particularly since essentially thats what his grooves are doing, I see no mention of how increasing the squish clearance improves mixture turbulence or increases burn speed...I guess because it does the exact opposite.

Maybe we should all go back to running flat head engines with huge squish areas and 6:1 compression and join the fan club in India just to see his performance increases.

Here's his website BTW, apparently his grooves will solve global warming also...someone kill me now.

http://www.somender-singh.com/

P.S. I would copy and paste some quotes from the website but they are so ridiculous and nonsensical they could be construed as spam. Read at your own peril...what a nutjob.
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Old 09-22-2010, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4 Jaw Chuck
Fireslots are used to prevent separation of the chamber by large compression domes near TDC, they aren't there to "squirt" A/F mixture at the spark plug which is what the Singh groove is supposed to do. Besides unless you have some huge compression ratio with a large dome no one requires fireslots on their pistons, its simply not required and is a bandaid fix for large compression drag engines from the sixties.

I find Singh's recommendation to run increased squish clearances a laugh particularly since essentially thats what his grooves are doing, I see no mention of how increasing the squish clearance improves mixture turbulence or increases burn speed...I guess because it does the exact opposite.

Maybe we should all go back to running flat head engines with huge squish areas and 6:1 compression and join the fan club in India just to see his performance increases.

Here's his website BTW, apparently his grooves will solve global warming also...someone kill me now.

http://www.somender-singh.com/

P.S. I would copy and paste some quotes from the website but they are so ridiculous and nonsensical they could be construed as spam. Read at your own peril...what a nutjob.
Henry Ford was a nut job too- doesn't mean his manufacturing idea wasn't a good one...

The extra quench distance doesn't make sense to me, but the groove idea could hold some water IMO. BUT as I already said its nothing an optimized chamber/piston combination wouldn't already have taken care of.
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Old 09-22-2010, 11:40 AM
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This is not meant to start an argument. My positive opinion is based on 6
years experience with this modification, have modified in excess of 100 sets
of heads and used this on my race cars and tow truck for the duration.


4 jaw chuck, what is your opinion based on?
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