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Old 09-20-2010, 10:38 AM
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Singh Grooves

I have read a few posts on here about "Singh Grooves". All of the posts I have read are people talking about them that already know what they are. What I would like to know is when they should be used. Are they used to lower compression by running a larger quench area? How are they cut? What are they cut with? When should they be used? When they should not be used? Any suggestions or comments on them would be nice.

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Old 09-20-2010, 10:55 AM
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All I have read is anecdotal evidence that the grooves work. Supposedly, they create turbulence above and beyond what is created w/o them. The additional turbulence decreases the need for octane or is a detonation reduction aid of sorts- IF I understand the concept correctly.
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Old 09-20-2010, 10:58 AM
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Old 09-20-2010, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crussell85
I have read a few posts on here about "Singh Grooves". All of the posts I have read are people talking about them that already know what they are. What I would like to know is when they should be used. Are they used to lower compression by running a larger quench area? How are they cut? What are they cut with? When should they be used? When they should not be used? Any suggestions or comments on them would be nice.
In at least one case (mentioned in the text accompanying one of the photos above), the quench was "opened up to 0.070"" and the engine was said to have responded positively to this modification. Presumably, this would have lowered the CR- but that's not why the grooves are used.

As for the "when" to using them, I suppose if you listened to those who are advocates, there is no "wrong" time to use them- they say it helps all engines, all the time, for the most part.

The grooves can be cut w/nothing more than a dremel, all the way up to a Bridgeport, I suppose.

Be aware that there hasn't been any hard evidence showing any improvements- at least that I am aware of- all that has been said has not been shown on a dyno, for instance.

That said, there are guys who defend the practice fervently.

I have no personal experience using them, so all I can do is report what I've heard.
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Old 09-20-2010, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crussell85
I have read a few posts on here about "Singh Grooves". All of the posts I have read are people talking about them that already know what they are. What I would like to know is when they should be used. Are they used to lower compression by running a larger quench area? How are they cut? What are they cut with? When should they be used? When they should not be used? Any suggestions or comments on them would be nice.
Mostly thay are a narrow and shallow groove (actually several) cut into the squish/quench deck from the valve pocket step to the cylinder side.

What they would do is provide a surface area increase, however, it would be small so it's impact on quench would be slight. They may help provide a jet of mixture from each groove generally aimed at the spark plug which might improve the chance of getting the mixture lit. They may provide a path for the flame front to penetrate the squish/quench step faster reducing burn time which could be helpful in getting the burn complete before detonation occurs, but detonation suppression is a major function of the squish/quench step so speed the burn on that side of the chamber isn't necessarily desirable.

In the end like everything else in an engine the size and closeness of the squish/quench step is really one size fits all where really a device that could vary its surface area and closeness to the piston with load on the crank and RPMs would be ideal, but such a device is rather impractical to make.

Singh grooves undoubtedly fill with carbon as the engine ages reducing what ever the benefit is to little or nothing.

I've yet to see dyno numbers or emission numbers that conclusively say they do anything be it good or bad. You can bet that if they did anything useful every race engine out there would have them and that's just not the case and that would be from people who scrub the 1% power gain in long rods to death.

Bogie
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Old 09-20-2010, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldbogie
I've yet to see dyno numbers or emission numbers that conclusively say they do anything be it good or bad. You can bet that if they did anything useful every race engine out there would have them and that's just not the case and that would be from people who scrub the 1% power gain in long rods to death.

Bogie
As stated with everything under the moon having been tried if this was consistently worth anything it would be known. I'm not doubting that it can have beneficial results in some cases where you have a terrible chamber/piston design, but there are other things that work more effectively- like a different chamber.
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Old 09-20-2010, 02:33 PM
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so, from what I have read here on this thread is that singh grooves should not be used to raise the quench to reduce the static compression ratio. Here is the thing.

383 stroker 4.030 bore 3.75 stroke
flat top piston w/ 2 valve relief
64cc cylinder heads
Very little deck clearance if any at all

If I run a .041 head gasket to maintain a .041 quench area my compression ratio is at or around 11.0.

I guess I am interested in sign grooves so I would not have to run such a large duration camshaft and stay on pump gas. Maybe the best solution that was told to me in a different post is to swap out pistons to lower compression. In a few posts that I read on the grooves they are talking about running 11.0 compression on a smaller camshaft and not having detonation problems, but I am not willing to bet my engine on this either. Like I read in another thread "when nascar starts using them then I will be convinces"
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Old 09-20-2010, 02:53 PM
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At one time I was interested in doing this to a set of Vortec heads. Then the debate came up about the Vortec deck being thin enough as it is, and would it be wise to "weaken" it more by grooving it.

Before that, I had always been of the opinion that "it might not help but it won't hurt". Now, I don't know if that would be an accurate statement.

Most times, no actual power gains are claimed. What you might hear claimed is better mileage, less octane needed, or more CR allowed before detonation sets in, "cleaner" combustion. But when you read other comments that claim an increase in trap speed or a reduction in ET, that might as well be a claim of more power.

In your case, I would have to say the grooves are not going to be enough- by themselves- to enable you to run that combo at max power total timing, on pump swill- even w/ aluminum heads.

Last edited by cobalt327; 09-20-2010 at 03:18 PM.
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Old 09-20-2010, 03:21 PM
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piston swap then?
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Old 09-20-2010, 03:30 PM
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That, or a larger chamber. It will take about a 74cc chamber to bring the CR down to ~10:1, or a piston dish of ~15cc using the 64cc chambers you now have. Either would be 9.92:1 w/a 0.041 gasket and a zero deck.

If you the swap slugs out, go w/a D-shaped cup rather than a standard round dish.
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Old 09-20-2010, 05:23 PM
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Something else to consider is a water/methanol injection setup.Heres a link to one company that makes them;
http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com/index.html
Guy
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Old 09-20-2010, 08:43 PM
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Useless mod, don't bother...unless of course you think painting lifter valleys to improve oil drainback is a great idea...then its a "must do" kind of thing.

We should be discussing the merits of fuel line magnets instead, those are sure fire performance enhancements in anyones book.
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Old 09-20-2010, 10:36 PM
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I did all the heads in the pictures shown by cobalt327. The grooves I
have measured are ~ 1 cc, so if you cut three and open the piston
to head clearance you will see a substantial drop in compression, do
the math to figure out how much.
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Old 09-20-2010, 10:46 PM
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If you do something like this with three grooves instead of two the chamber
should measure about three cc's bigger. If the chamber shroud is not
optimized, work the areas around the valves to lower the compression further.

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Old 09-21-2010, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by automotive breath
I did all the heads in the pictures shown by cobalt327. The grooves I
have measured are ~ 1 cc, so if you cut three and open the piston
to head clearance you will see a substantial drop in compression, do
the math to figure out how much.
I apologize for not crediting you w/the photos- I inadvertently omitted the source of the photos from my notes. I'd edit my post to include an acknowledgement, except the time limit for edits has been shortened to 1/2 hour...

SINGH GROOVE LINKS

http://speedtalk.com/forum/
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005...ch_and_st.html
http://www.popsci.com/cars/article/2...rch-holy-grail
http://www.revsearch.com/grooves/grooves.html

Squish action- http://home.earthlink.net/~scloughn/id21.html

Speedtalk forum discussion- http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic...r=asc&start=15

Hotrodders Forum- Singh Grooves and chamber advice

Last edited by cobalt327; 09-21-2010 at 09:28 AM.
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