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  #16  
Old 12-01-2006, 03:01 PM
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xntrik xntrik is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by automotive breath
Curtis is absolutely right, I did a test, lets call it privative wet flow. I put a gasket on a grooved head and placed a piece of plexi glass with a hole in it over the squish area. With a low pressure parts washer, I blew solvent into the hole; some of the solvent blew out of the squish window, the rest exited out of the groove in a stream. I concluded, with this groove as a guide, you can decide where you want the concentrated squish to flow. Now I cut them in many directions trying to decide what works best.

I've been doing this for over two years, at first with the direction of Somender Singh. Some folk’s say this won't work, I have never heard that from someone that has tried it!


As I said in a previous thread, I knew a man who was doing this in '61-'63, some with 3 tapered grooves on each cylinder. His race engines performed well. I recall seeing a 2 cycle engine head he did that had 6 grooves because of the massive concentric quench area, tiny chamber, true flattop piston, and 14/1 compression.
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  #17  
Old 12-01-2006, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xntrik
Thanks for the update. After lots of studying, I am totally convinced they work. And will be using them on my new SBF heads.
x

Hi xntrik, the idea is really catching on locally. I have grooved several SBF engines. One in particular has been the biggest success to date.

A local Super Pro bracket racer heard about what I was doing and came to me for help. He is running very high DCR with a dome piston and a relatively small flat tappet camshaft. Detonation at the starting line went unnoticed and was causing engine damage.

We cut one groove in each chamber and opened his squish clearance to 0.070”. The car responded like I have never seen. The first night out it ended up on the trailer unable to control wheel standing. After a rear end gear change and chassis adjustment he is back on track running quicker and with more MPH than ever before.

Here are some pictures:



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  #18  
Old 12-02-2006, 10:06 AM
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the grooves??

do the grooves have to be strate or can they be at angels or curved? dose it mater how Minny grooves there are?? would it make a difference if the spark plug is lined up with the grooves wild that make a difference??
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  #19  
Old 12-02-2006, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rale
do the grooves have to be straight or can they be at angels or curved?

Does it mater how many grooves there are??

Would it make a difference if the spark plug is lined up with the grooves wild that make a difference??


Hi Rale, it has been determined that straight grooves provide greater benefit than curved. This is something that I have not tried; I’m reporting what I have heard from other people that have.

One groove work’s well, additional grooves add to the benefits, the most that I have tried is three in each chamber. I’ll attach a picture to show you what I did. With the SBC chamber it is difficult to fit multiple grooves because the intake valve can be close to the deck surface.

The grooves need to point towards the advancing flame front, not necessarily the spark plug. The objective is to create turbulence in the flame itself to speed up development. Here’s a post from another board that explains the benefits of turbulence in the combustion chamber.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob
… Spark ignition (SI) engines all work on the principle of a turbulent flame front (TFF) consuming the air-fuel charge. A normal combustion event would be considered one where the spark ignites the air fuel mixture (a complex process in itself) and the flame propagates throughout the air-fuel mixture with this turbulent flame front.

First, think of a chamber (say a cube or a disc for simplicity) full of nice calm, still air-fuel mixture. A spark in the middle ignites, and begins to consume the mixture. Ideally, the flame front (in this case a laminar flame front, since the mixture is still) would form a spherical shell, as it progresses. Now, this flame front is propelled by a couple of forces. First, the mixture in the wake of the flame front is obviously heated by the combustion. This heat translates to an increase in pressure. This higher pressure burned gas compresses the mixture ahead of the flame front. Since the volume of the burned gases expands it helps accelerate the flame front. Think of blowing up a balloon. The compression of the end gas also raises its temperature. Flame speeds are higher in higher temperature mixtures.

For a turbulent flame front, consider instead of a calm chamber, a chamber full of turbulent eddies, of all size scales. As the flame front approaches one of these swirling eddies, the flame edge is 'torn' and spun around by the eddy, into fresh mixture. This helps to shred up the flame front, and helps to progress the burn of the mixture. In short, this is really why SI engines work at all…




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  #20  
Old 12-06-2006, 06:32 PM
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dead for 9 months

yo. can't believe this thread ended after less than two pages. anyway.
auto breath, why are the groove in your pic above coming from the exhaust valve? how did this work in comparison to coming from the spark plug and how did the multiple lines work compared to the single?

this is a great idea to me and my 400 pontiac because i am at .032 down in the hole and with a .039 gasket would be right at 71 down so perfect for this groove-thang!!! i have been planning on zero decking.
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  #21  
Old 12-06-2006, 07:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bullheimer
yo. can't believe this thread ended after less than two pages. anyway.
auto breath, why are the groove in your pic above coming from the exhaust valve? how did this work in comparison to coming from the spark plug and how did the multiple lines work compared to the single?

this is a great idea to me and my 400 pontiac because i am at .032 down in the hole and with a .039 gasket would be right at 71 down so perfect for this groove-thang!!! i have been planning on zero decking.


What piston design does the 400 have?

What heads, 6X?

Can you buy a 0.026" thick gasket?

Two grooves are better than one, just more of the benefits. With the SBC the valves are very close to the deck surface, trying to fit multiple grooves in the squish area around the valves is difficult, thats why these are so close together.

The vortec heads will be installed during the Collage Christmas break. The three groove edelbrock heads work great, better than the single layout. The two groove LT1 heads are going on a 383 street engine, haven't been installed.
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  #22  
Old 12-06-2006, 07:53 PM
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cool xmas is coming. my poncho, unfortunately, has 8 eyebrow crap pistons i am using because they didn't have to be replaced. low miles on a 30 over rebuild i got for free. heads are awesome 061 castings, the first open head design with a 75cc chamber much like the sbc. valves of course are larger. i think they are 2.11 and 1.65 or .75 i don't know. they are stone cold stock. but i was pushing 9.6:1 c.r. if i zero decked. right now i am at a perfect 9.02:1 if i used a .039 head gasket. i can get thinner gaskets, i think a cometic is .015 or so. but that gasket will cost more than for me to zero deck. on the other hand, i could just buy it and be done with it, 'cept for the groovey grooves.
one of the other things i was going to have to do to run 9.6:1 was getta cam with alot of overlap and wife lobe sep. would i be able to run a comp xe type cam instead with the grooves? also, i noticed those heads have had the dogcrap ported out of them. does that matter? thanks
also number two: what have you knowledge about cutting the grooves into the tops of pistons vs. the head? this q is posted on my pontiac site now, as is this whole thread via a link i made on a similar thread that was going nowhere

Last edited by bullheimer : 12-06-2006 at 08:12 PM.
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  #23  
Old 12-06-2006, 08:38 PM
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With those heads, I would put two to three parallel grooves in the squish pad angled towards the intake valve, 9.6:1 compression with a small cam should be fine with no detonation.

I’m able to buy a low buck Victor head gasket for the SBC that is 0.026” thick. I suppose they are not available for the Pontiac engines.

Porting is not necessary with the grooves, porting is all about power!
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  #24  
Old 12-06-2006, 08:55 PM
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This is very interesting,never heard of it before. What tool/tools do you use to cut the grooves?
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  #25  
Old 12-06-2006, 09:04 PM
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I cut the grooves with a 1/16" ball end mill and shape the end at the chamber with a file.

What part of Louisiana are you from?
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  #26  
Old 12-06-2006, 09:29 PM
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Little town between Shreveport and Alexandria. I am slowly piecing together a 383 for my '95 TBI truck. I bought a new set of pro topline stock replacement heads less the swirl vane. Looks like a good mod to do on them.
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  #27  
Old 12-07-2006, 05:30 PM
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auto B, you just told me to angle the grooves towards the intake valves. those would be the LARGE ones. all of your pictures show the lines headed towards the smaller exhaust valve. also, with a 26 thou gasket and 32 down i would be only at 58 quench, far from the 70-90 referred to earlier.
(Edit: previously you said 50-70, not 70-90)

Last edited by bullheimer : 12-08-2006 at 01:38 PM.
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  #28  
Old 12-07-2006, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bullheimer
auto B, you just told me to angle the grooves towards the intake valves. those would be the LARGE ones. all of your pictures show the lines headed towards the smaller exhaust valve. also, with a 26 thou gasket and 32 down i would be only at 58 quench, far from the 70-90 referred to earlier.
The last two pictures of SBC heads have the grooves pointed at the exhaust valve. They were done that way because the intake valve is at the deck leaving no room ideal groove location. Check out the vortec heads posted earlier, your Pontiac heads have more space to position the grooves even better.

When detonation is a concern, my opinion on piston to head clearance with a steel rod engine < 7500 RPM is 0.050" to 0.070", many people disagree with that. The wider clearance does cost some performance.
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  #29  
Old 12-08-2006, 01:07 AM
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Can you elaborate on why do you need to have a .070" quench for the grooves to work their best? Wouldn't tighter quench like .040" just make it even more turbulent?
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  #30  
Old 12-08-2006, 04:10 PM
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fiscus,
Every combination must be considered individually; on one extreme I have heard of people running low RPM engines with less than 0.030" piston to head clearance, other high level NOS engines like very wide squish clearance.

I'm going with about 0.050" in the SBC engines I build lately; I find it’s a good compromise. I have done testing with several SBC engines in my Camaros over the last two years changing head gasket thickness to alter the squish clearance. The testing wasn't ideal because with a thicker gasket the compression goes down. I have tried 0.035", 0.045", 0.056" and 0.070", with my combination. With the grooves it ran best with 0.056" and no detonation. Performance was great at 0.035" but I had to keep a close eye on detonation.

The owner of the Mustang posted earlier went with 0.070" clearance, it worked for him; personally I feel a little tighter would improve performance further. The car runs low 10s now and is no longer breaking parts.

Somender Singh recommended the wider clearance, I tried it and I like it. I'm not sure that I fully understand why but I know the benefit of the wider clearance with grooves is related to reducing detonation, he feels it has to do with complete combustion in the squish zone.

My thoughts are the grooves provide increased turbulence allowing a wider squish clearance that reduces squish zone pressure. This combined with faster flame travel allows reduced ignition advance ultimately reducing detonation tendencies.
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