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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 12-29-2009, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap72
Can you get the engine built to any desired bore size? Is there an additional charge to run a 4.125" bore- essentially a 400?

If those heads can be proved to be up to snuff you may have a pretty solid package there, granted its nothing extradorinary but at that price its a pretty good deal if the materials and machining are quality.

decent crank, decent, rods, good pistons, good bearings, decent cam, good block. all at a pretty nice price.

I would change a few things if I was building it (namely heads and cam), but perhaps its not such a bad deal for some people.
The Stage 3 is at 4.125 and the cnc'd heads are fabulous on this. We can't go more on the cam with 10.5 comp, well we could but your getting into Prostreet, with poor street manners, but that's what I like, few others like it though. You should go to utube and check out the in car video of the Stage 3 engine. The Scat 4340 is excellent, and the Probe SRS 2618 pistons are the top of the line. The bearings are King HP series, and we know the PC H-beam rods are great. The guys in the machine shop are race engine builders, and have an almost zero failure rate on buildups. Direct Motion did the heads the way we wanted them, not as Procomp wanted them.

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 12-29-2009, 06:56 PM
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i'm not trying to chap your hind skip, i'm just going off what i have heard in the past, mainly about the 190cc, i dont know much about the 210cc. to most peoples belief 210cc on a motor that wont run 6500RPM is a bit much. but really as long as those higher runner size heads still have good flow numbers at lower lift and have a good consistant rate of increase going into a higher lift then you're really not going to loose anything at lower RPM
(this is what i was refering to when i mention a mismatch of parts, a high runner size with a non high reving cam)

you did say that they are solid performers and i guess for a low to mid 400hp expectation they may be, this is not the numbers i normally think of when i hear someone is useing 210cc heads i normally expect low to mid 500hp. i know that i bought a set of the DART iron eagle platinum 200cc heads had them angle milled to 58cc and had the flashing cleaned up and mild port and polish then flow tested and got a little better numbers then you mentioned with the DART pro 1's.

like others have mentioned it does sound as if you truely belive in what you are selling, and like i mentioned before i have bought things from you on e-bay in the past. i was very pleased in what i received before and i'm not trying to discredit your name. i'm just weary of PC products, reputation is butt and very hard to turn around once you have messed it up.

when i mentioned that i have seen this exact motor with the exact cam, heads, intake, valve covers, block etc. i was telling the truth, it was right when i first made a comment on the original post, i looked at another performance shop and saw it. it doesn't mean that you dont build the ones you have i just thought it was ironic.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 12-29-2009, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by my87Z
i'm not trying to chap your hind skip, i'm just going off what i have heard in the past, mainly about the 190cc, i dont know much about the 210cc. to most peoples belief 210cc on a motor that wont run 6500RPM is a bit much. but really as long as those higher runner size heads still have good flow numbers at lower lift and have a good consistant rate of increase going into a higher lift then you're really not going to loose anything at lower RPM
(this is what i was refering to when i mention a mismatch of parts, a high runner size with a non high reving cam)

you did say that they are solid performers and i guess for a low to mid 400hp expectation they may be, this is not the numbers i normally think of when i hear someone is useing 210cc heads i normally expect low to mid 500hp. i know that i bought a set of the DART iron eagle platinum 200cc heads had them angle milled to 58cc and had the flashing cleaned up and mild port and polish then flow tested and got a little better numbers then you mentioned with the DART pro 1's.

like others have mentioned it does sound as if you truely belive in what you are selling, and like i mentioned before i have bought things from you on e-bay in the past. i was very pleased in what i received before and i'm not trying to discredit your name. i'm just weary of PC products, reputation is butt and very hard to turn around once you have messed it up.

when i mentioned that i have seen this exact motor with the exact cam, heads, intake, valve covers, block etc. i was telling the truth, it was right when i first made a comment on the original post, i looked at another performance shop and saw it. it doesn't mean that you dont build the ones you have i just thought it was ironic.
I understand your sceptisism.
We use the 210's on our Stage 1 350 engine and make 418hp at around 5800 I would like for the 190's to flow better, but I know they wouldn't make this power on that engine. If the 190's did flow decent enough, then the engine would have a better low end. The Stage 1 engine, doe's very good, but not in a heavy car with the 488/510 cam. We tried the 210's on a 400 engine with the 568-/574 hyd. roller cam, and they made right at 500hp but torque numbers were not that great, or may I say nothing like the 220 cnc'd heads. Larry, our engine builder did a 383 with the Lunati 04 Vodoo cam and made 440hp with 495lb feet of torque, using the 210 heads. I don't remember at what rpm, but I can tell you this is the solom truth. I would have never guessed it could make this hp and torque, but it did. I did a 350 with the Lunati 03 Vodoo cam and the 210 heads, and it didn't do well at all. You say an engine that's like our's is on the market, its because someone is copying the combo I suppose. We don't outsource any engine building. at the moment.
The sellers of the PC heads have pushed the 190 heads to people with 383 engines, telling them that they are good for medium to serious buildups. We certainly don't think they are, and it's because of the flow numbers. It would be nice to have a set of 190's that had good enough numbers to work with a 383 engine, but the only ones out their are the high end heads. We have sold over 100 of the Stage 1 engines, and they al have the 210 on them, and that is pushing it when it comes to building a medium built 350 with 418hp. The engine does very decently in a not to heavy car. The old Patriot 190's were magic, and they are no longer available.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 12-29-2009, 07:50 PM
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sorry skip i just looked in my internet history from last week and found the site with the same motor and they are just a middle man as they get the motor from you.

i mentioned that i'm running the DART iron eagle platinum heads 200cc they have been cleaned up and angle milled to 58cc (flow tested at 286cfm at .550), i'm running them on a 385cid with about 10.4-5:1 compression, all howards valve train; 284/292-242/252 @ .050 .525/.525 with 1.6 rockers. est power numbers are around 525hp/ 495tq. running 115-116mph thought the traps in a 3600lbs car (with driver) only got 11.7's in the 1/4 but i've only had it together since september and i'm still learning the car, only ran it 5 times, still gotta get some more suspension tuning done and just some practice. oh by the way the distributor came from you.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 12-29-2009, 08:38 PM
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I'm not experienced at all with engine building, but wanted to chime in about the intake runner size. I've been playing with my new dyno simulator, and according to it the 383-400(which I want to build) seems to want perform best all around with 210 intake runners. This is on a motor peaking at 5500 with a dual plane intake. I don't know how accurate and realistic a simulator is, but that's what it said. Cheers
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 01-12-2010, 12:55 AM
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Personally I think people are being a bit harsh on procomp products. Even if they aren't the highest quality parts available, I do wonder how much grief they get because they are made in an Asian country, even by some people have probably never used the product.

There always seems to be a lot of "I've heard...". While some of this might be factual, there is so many causes that might be immediately dismissed/ignored when that part failed.

If you want the highest quality and performance, go pay for it. $629 for a pair of brand new complete aluminium heads sounds damn cheap to me and provides people with a low budget an 'option'. No one is forcing you to buy the cheapest part around. The company has likely had to make sacrifices in quality to achieve such a low price and you should probably expect that.

I'm sure there's people selling products like this who advertise it as something it might not be, but I believe Skip gives a pretty honest description.


What I've written is my view, I'm not saying they are good or bad I just don't believe 100% of the criticism against their products is called for.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 01-12-2010, 05:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gas_guzzler
What I've written is my view, I'm not saying they are good or bad I just don't believe 100% of the criticism against their products is called for.
You are entitled to your opinion- but it is based on what? Nada- not one bit of empirical (first hand) knowledge. So while you are entitled to this viewpoint, I respectfully submit that it is useless- AFA having any meaningful content- IMO.

There are quite a few first hand reports of various problems w/these heads- Skip even mentions some of them. So it's not like the heads are only being black flagged because they're Chinese. They got BF'ed because there were problems w/them, period.

Now, if you can find out what the heat treat specs are, or even what material the guides and seats are made from, that'd be something.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 01-12-2010, 06:57 AM
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Cobalt, have you ever cut one these heads open and compaired it to another more expensive head that you cut open? Do you have and engine dyno? Do you have a chasis dyno? Do you have a quality control division is your garage? Answer these questions, and maybe I will listen. Post your proof that the pro comp products are garbage. now I can understand wanting to by usa made products, but i dont think this is the place to talk politics. White Performance as been around for a long time, I think they wouls not be in business if they were screwing people. Do your own test. You should invest 100K, and start testing for yourself, then maybe you would have a leag to stand on. Quit bashing.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 01-12-2010, 07:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by V3500
Cobalt, have you ever cut one these heads open and compaired it to another more expensive head that you cut open? Do you have and engine dyno? Do you have a chasis dyno? Do you have a quality control division is your garage? Answer these questions, and maybe I will listen. Post your proof that the pro comp products are garbage. now I can understand wanting to by usa made products, but i dont think this is the place to talk politics. White Performance as been around for a long time, I think they wouls not be in business if they were screwing people. Do your own test. You should invest 100K, and start testing for yourself, then maybe you would have a leag to stand on. Quit bashing.

WOW so basically you're stance is every product is 100% perfect unless extensive testing proves otherwise? Boy oh boy do I have some stuff to sell you!

Some very famous "hotrodder" once said, "It is not necessary to build a swimming pool to determine a bowling ball won't float." (Zora Duntov)
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 01-12-2010, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by V3500
Answer these questions, and maybe I will listen.
Don't be asinine. I don't know if Skip has all the facilities you mention, either. But why don't you do what I and others have- ask those who've had actual experience w/them? They do not have a good record.

Quote:
now I can understand wanting to by usa made products, but i dont think this is the place to talk politics.
Politics?? I defy you to find ONE DAMNED TIME that I've said "Chinese products are inferior to USA products", "Only buy American" or words to that effect. You can't because I've NEVER said that, nor do I believe that to be true in all cases.

Quote:
White Performance as been around for a long time, I think they wouls not be in business if they were screwing people.
Skip White came on here and touted his products as being good. However, he makes his cabbage selling these heads, rods, etc.- so he IS NOT an unbiased observer. And where have I EVER said Skip's screwing people?
Quote:
Do your own test. You should invest 100K, and start testing for yourself, then maybe you would have a leag to stand on.Quit bashing.
Did you read ALL the posts of this thread?? You seem to be talking about someone else, or lack the ability to comprehend what's written. And you had better put a check on your propensity to put words in my mouth.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 01-12-2010, 07:50 AM
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Your still bashing. Keep talking to people, and bashing another man product. I would almost say its against the law. Like I said before, I want proof. Could you go to the bbb and say i heard these products are bad? No you couldnt. Proof. Post something that is useful.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 01-12-2010, 08:11 AM
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Cobalt, I think this is one of those times where you just shake your head and walk away, he'll get what he deserves. Remember, "Life's tough, but its even tougher when you're stupid."
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Old 01-12-2010, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap72
Cobalt, I think this is one of those times where you just shake your head and walk away, he'll get what he deserves. Remember, "Life's tough, but its even tougher when you're stupid."
I agree- when someone perceives something, it's THEIR reality. Doesn't matter what is said, or what the facts are. Perception is reality AFA they're concerned.

Funny, too, that I'm actually a 'moderate' when it comes to off-shore parts, especially compared to many- even those who've posted on this very thread. lol
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Old 01-12-2010, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by cobalt327
I agree- when someone perceives something, it's THEIR reality. Doesn't matter what is said, or what the facts are. Perception is reality AFA they're concerned.

Funny, too, that I'm actually a 'moderate' when it comes to off-shore parts, especially compared to many- even those who've posted on this very thread. lol
Quality is quality and after years of politicians ramming this country's economy into the ground buying offshore makes sense in a lot of ways. I try to buy for value, value in product and support.
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Old 01-12-2010, 03:36 PM
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The PC heads are simply a good value for a mild to medium buildup. We sell the newest version Dart Platinum Pro One heads, and really think they to are a somewhat good value, all things considered. I did have a really good add on the Darts trying to emphasize some of the benifits, but sales on them were not very good. The PC heads fills the bill for so many street rodders on a budget and we are glad to have them. I do notice that some people that have choose to go with a set of Dart heads feel the need to critize others for using the lower cost PC heads. The PC heads certainly have a place, and always will. As far as reliability, they are excellent for the average street rodder. Most of these egines are using a hyd. flat tappet cam that would never see the benifit of higher flowing heads. I go to the local car shows frequently and see some really nice cars with the PC heads on them, and this is in line with the engine they usually have them on. It doesn't make sense to buy a set of heads costing $1,200.00 or more for an engine that has a $79.00 flat tappet cam in the 460 to 525 range. Your not going to see much if any difference from the better heads. On the other hand if you could afford to spend an additional $600.00 on your engine then the Dart or Afr heads would definately establish bragging rights, and improve the resale of your vehicle, plus offer outstanding reliability exceeding other low cost heads. If I only had $600.00 extra to spend on my engine, I think I would upgrade to a hyd. roller cam, and a set of retro lifters, and go up slightly on lift and duration or at least keep it the same, and add a set of stud girdles. Spending the $600.00 this way would make more sense in my opinion.

Last edited by SKIP WHITE; 01-12-2010 at 03:57 PM.
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