[badazz81z28]

You guys are fun to talk with.
Im just ruffling your feathers. I know these type of subjects causes arguments. Im just having a little fun.
This is a no win situation.

[Miket]

Originally posted by 68chevelle_ss
Hey miket, How's that 502 run w/ that low profile air cleaner. I assume you need it for hood clearance. What car is it in and how does it run. Is it a factory 502 or did you do some tweaking to it. I've been thinking about a 502 shortblock w/ AFR heads lately. I heard the 502's have some oil burning problems which can be solved by installing some file fit rings. Let me know.

Hey 68---that air cleaner didn't spend anytime on that motor ...I replaced it with a K&N a little deeper and had enough hood clearance.

It was a ZZ502 but I had valve train problems out of the crate...without hijacking the thread (which I may already have done) and going into detail, the motor ended up getting tore down completely. I then had quite a bit done to it to include the ring change and having the block decked abit. I kept the same heads but had them redone and ported slightly....went to a solid roller cam, new valve train components...fuller rollers etc...new port matched intake and BG 850 mighty demon.

Still runs on pump gas...dynoed at 665hp and 630 ft/lbs of torque (that was with a different BG carb)

It is in a 71 cheyenne longbed 2 wheel drive truck....below...it runs great aside from carb tuning issues I have yet to fix----primarily due to lack of $$$ for a new MSD 6AL. Guys have made serious HP with rect port heads on a 502---even with the gM oval ports and more work I could well be in the 700 range pretty easy. I chose to stay with ovals because I wanted as much torque as possible in the lower ranges. it's a daily driver. I definitely recommend pulling apart a factory assembled short block to check everything out....then change the rings while your in there.

[357ford]

Originally posted by killerformula
Yeah really. There are mopar strokers out there too (360 makes a nice 408). THe engines are all pushrod V8 motors, not dissimilar at all.

NOt to be a ***** about this, but considering I just got done building a 383, maybe I'm pretty sure I know its not a bigblock.

Sure you're not trying to cover a misprint?

BTW, the orignial question (look at the options in the poll) was about bigblock and smallblock stroker motors. Never said anything about chevy, just used it as an example.


Eiyyayayaiii!!!

K

Only you know if your post was a misprint or not, right?

Given the nature of your posts, kinda aggressive with emphasis that your always right, you probably wouldn't admit it if it were.

The fact the lengthy thread up to that point was pure chevy, had I not mentioned the fact 383 wasn't a BBC, I am confident that mopar would not have been entered into the conversation.

Besides this is a bulletin board, its a place were people open hypothetical threads asking for opinions, and then respond with trying to prove how they are right, right?

Good luck with your new stroked SBC, glad you realized it still a small block.

[killerformula]

good lord, whatever man.

K

[357ford]

I'll stop....not trying to piss anyone off....I was just messing with ya...




...actually from what little I know about mopar, the stroker 408 with head work isn't a bad engine. I even read an article once where they built up a 318...and to be honest I was shocked at the results. Then again, you factor in magazine hype and qestionable dyno figures..its hard to gain much from an article...allbeit interesting. The down side of mopar is the cost of parts I believe, I thought ford sucked even with all the used 302 crap floating around but man mopar really gets the short end of that stick.

So what are you wanting to build or is this just for discussion purposes? later

[killerformula]

back on topic. THANK YOU.

As far as a build is concerned, I'm definately not ready to start building another motor yet. This smallblock is a great performer, but I've always wanted an excuse to build a bigblock, and this thread has definately given it to me. I guess I just started thinking, geez, if you can get the same cubes out of a smallblock and save the weight, aren't you further ahead just to build one? WEll, obviously not. Motors with like cubes are not created equal! Bigblock is simply a more performance oriented design. I'll definately put one together for my next build. Something with forced induction... And to be honest, it would probably be a 440 mopar motor (I'm a mopar man at heart).

K

[357ford]

Well I received car craft today and for a second, couldn't believe what I was reading, oddly enough they did and article BBC 454 vs SBC 454. They shared the same bore and stroke obviously, the small block had smaller port aluminum heads and the BBC larger iron. The camshafts were different, obviusly to fit the individual head choices better or you would think, given the results maybe that not so accurate.

So which one do you think made more hp and tq?






The small block beat the BB by 11 more tq and 7 more hp and even more ironic the SB made the torque lower, go figure.

They made the comment that the heads on the BBC may be too large, well given the previously mentioned results, I would say they obviously were. They even commented that the camshaft for the SBC may have been a little better matched to the combo, didn't really go into detail as to why they thought that. Regardless, it is what it is. I think it fell inline with what everyone was saying, same cubes, money not an issue then go with the SBC. If money is the driving force then BBC. Another example to build off the hp/dollar aspect...the SBC was roughly $10400 and the BBC was rougly $9000 according to car craft.


What was the odds of that article coming out? hahaha...thought I would post that, I am sure some of you would like to look at it.

[killerformula]

Go figure. And think that an aluminum set of heads for the bigblock would further bring the price gap closer. If you're going to spend 9500 or 10,500 already, you'd probably go with the SBC just to save the 150 lbs too. Insane. I'm sure that's not generally the case though, and the SB probably had some really nice heads on it. The $ to build is what I'm most interested in, doesn't seem like its taht far out!

K

[357ford]

Here comes and example of perspective.

YOu say aluminum heads would bring the price gap closer. Sure would.


I ask why get aluminum if your making identical hp with cast iron? I would rather put the $1400 towards a stroker kit and keep the iron heads...you know its gonna make more hp and tq...so who is ahead then?


All about perspective and no one is wrong.

[killerformula]

well it stands to reason that you're going to need some better flowing heads for more cubes, so now you're more than likely stuck buying heads too, putting you way over the 1400 dollar margin and we're back to square one. I did find one stroker kit for a 496, and it had forged pistions, but I'm not sure how great that cast crank is. A stroker kit to handle the big power would probalby cost a bunch more.

I think in the end if you want to start spending bucks, especially if you want a blown motor, you'll always end up way ahead with the bigblock-

K

[357ford]

Originally posted by killerformula
well it stands to reason that you're going to need some better flowing heads for more cubes, so now you're more than likely stuck buying heads too, putting you way over the 1400 dollar margin and we're back to square one. I did find one stroker kit for a 496, and it had forged pistions, but I'm not sure how great that cast crank is. A stroker kit to handle the big power would probalby cost a bunch more.

I think in the end if you want to start spending bucks, especially if you want a blown motor, you'll always end up way ahead with the bigblock-

K

You make some good points. The only thing that might be questionable it whether you would need larger heads with more cubes, I think some of the reasoning behind the BB's lack of HP and TQ compared to the SB was the fact the iron heads were too big and could stand to be smaller, so I would think the additional CI would take advantage of that. Then again, theory and reality don't always give the same results.

[killerformula]

yeah, I'm with you. I think the article is probably a bit of a flook, but it shows how close you can get in performance and price with a smallblock... and go play with the big dogs. Man technology always blows my mind-

K

[Super Streeter]

Bigblock horsepower is way cheaper in the longrun.You cant even build a 454 inch smallblock without every trick aftermarket piece in the book.You can get all the parts you ned to build a 454 inch bigblock bottom end that will withstand 650hp for $500 in the junkyard.A stock cast crank 2 bolt main 454 truck motor with truck rods has all the core parts needed to make a 650hp engine.Machine everything at the cost of about $1500 and add a set of good aftermarket pistons some new rod bolts,a superdamper and sfi flywhel and with all the soft parts{ring and bearings and stuff} you can have a 468 inch shortblock that willl turn 6500rpm and make 650hp for under 4 grand.If you dont want to go to the junkyard,just buy a 454hp shortblock.Bigblocks can get similar lift and duration out of a flat tappet cam that a radical roller gives a smallblock.650" lift and 270 duration at .050" is run of the mill flat tappet stuff for a bigblock,bt it is a monster for a smallblock.What kind of heads does it take to feed a 454 smallblock making 650 n/a horsepower?I bet they cost just as much as a set of GMPP roval port almuinum bigblock heads,and the bigblock heads will still flow at least a little more.I run a bigblock chevy that is only 440 inches,and I make 1000 hp with a stock 2 bolt block with the stock caps and with a junkyard 396 steel crank.Find me some junkyard smallblock parts that can do that.How about the fact that I make 700 horsepower at 7200rpm{the rest of my power is from nitrous},and do with with a set of GMPP heads with nothing more then a bowl blend and a good vavle job,and also with a flat tappet cam.My entire engine cost 7 grand to build from oil pan to intake manifold.
468 inches is just the tip of the iceberg.If I had to shell out the cash for an aftermarket block to build a 454SB,I would buy a GM 502 block,bore it to 4.5" and drop a 4.375" crank in it and have 100 cubes more for about the same money.A 555 bigblock is common place.How many shops build 4.25" stroke smallblocks?How does the cost of the crank compare to that of a 4.375" bigblock crank?How about heads?For under $2800 I can drop a set of 345cc heads onto that 555 and have a combo that will make 900 N/A horsepower.How much wouldSB heads cost that could make that kind of power?How hard would the little SB have to spin?I could run the 555 with a .750" lift solid roller and 12:1 compression and I could make it all work with stud mounted roller rockers in the stock location.Would a 900hp smallblock be running stud mounted rockers?Anywhere near the stock location??How about the intake on that 900hp SB,I am thinking $3000 sheet metal,as opposed to a $450 gasket matched super victor for the 555.If you had the urge to go faster,which engine would you rather drop a 300hp plate system on,the 7000rpm 555 with 12:1,or the 8500rpm 454SB with 14:1?There is no comparision when you use the engines for what they were intended.

As for the 383 mopar,just remember this,when it came time to go drag radial class racing and the rulebook required that you run a stock layout head on a stock block and runpounds per cube weight breaks,I remember a certain camaro that exploited the potential of the 383 mopar motor.I didnt see a 383 chevy under the hood of that record setting camaro{yet it would have been perfectly legal as would any aftermarket heads with stock valve spacing},but the mopar was the loophole combination that beat the rulebook.The car was prettymuch unbeatable wherever it went.

[coldknock]

1000HP and a stock 2bolt block! I hope you have a good diaper under that thing.

I gotta get my rowboat.

Larry

[BstMech]

I think the reliability factor favoring the big block is all I would need to make this choice. Which would you rather fork out the cash to repair after a mishap at the track, a stock displacement 454 big block, or a highly modified (expensive) 454 small block.

And I wouldn't take that magazine article as gospel. They're supposed to sell magazines remember? Besides, if it were the whole truth, you wouldn't feel it in the seat of your pants anyway. $0.02

Good thread, I've pondered this subject myself to an extent.