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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 08-16-2005, 06:11 AM
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hey I know, bigger pipe always is better, makes pulling easier as well as it addresses future considerations. I work by myself too, been laid off for a while now so am out on my own working for myself. I have to tell you your the first guy who has given the 'right way to do it' help of all the advice I have read on here for the do it yourselfers.



later...

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 08-16-2005, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ztoy
[ . . . snipped . . . ]
I have to tell you your the first guy who has given the 'right way to do it' help of all the advice I have read on here for the do it yourselfers.
I've received excellent advice from a great many people on here.

Hope you find time for more reading.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 08-16-2005, 04:34 PM
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Hey grouch how did your garage rewire project come out? As I told the fella who started this thread, I would prefer to do the job. But if I can't I will give the best advice I can to make sure that the work done is the safest way possible.

Man spell check is a cool feature!!!!!
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 08-16-2005, 08:18 PM
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My garage is a never-ending project. They better bury me near it so I don't scare people on the way to "finish" some part of it.

The rewiring project had to take a lower priority than getting a roof on the extension. I have a 20 space, 100 amp box and a 2" PVC stub-out waiting for the other half of the trench to be dug. Now that I have a roof over my Olds, I'm beginning to feel a need for outlets and lights in that part. I still haven't purchased the wires to pull through that conduit, though. They will either be #2 or #3. (Thanks again to onenew32 and others in More garage wiring questions ).

There's a mess in my home box that has to be cleaned up also. All the grounds are paired with the neutrals under the lugs. Besides that, the only place available for a 2" conduit to enter the box has just a stub of a PVC conduit in it and a handful of 12/2 cables passing through that. Ugh!
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Old 08-17-2005, 12:09 AM
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You should see some of the stuff we do as professionals. I some times wonder if people are just that dumb, or have a death wish. Last year I bid on a 2100sq-ft addition onto an 1800sq-ft house built in the 50s some one had been there before and had installed a 200amp meter-main without permitting. they then put in a lot of recess can lights,A/C, 2 ovens and one stove top. Because of the size of the addition I had to upgrade the service to 320amps when we took down the old service there was evidence of charing around the splices, since the wire from the electric company was sized for the original 50 amp service not 200.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 08-17-2005, 10:24 AM
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Man I agree on that one bigun, sometimes the clusterfu*ks we walk into almost make you want to walk away. My problem is I want to see that its right, for safetys sake so I usually wade in...lol!

grouch, I read the post you had linked to this one and I found it kind of hard to read (probably just me), but I read one from yours towards the end that seemed to show you were on the right track. Copper is better than aluminum. Longer lasting plus if you go aluminum you have to increase your wire size to equal the ampacity of the copper. There is more chance of corrosion using aluminum, plus it sweats and has a tendency, over time, to loosen in its lugs, causing arcing and a possible meltdown. But there is nothing wrong with using aluminum if thats your thing. Don't know about Ky, but here in Michigan the only way a panel in a separate building, fed from another panel, is considered anything other than a sub panel, is if the out building is connected to the main building by water pipes. If so, then you would run 2 hot wires and 1 neutral from the main panel and then the out building is considered to have its own system needing its own ground rod with it being bonded to the neutral. If no water pipe connection, then you would run an additional, properly sized, ground wire from the main panel, and the one in the out building would be considered a 'sub' panel off the 'main' panel. Now heres one option I haven't heard here, which is perfectly legal, given the right circumstances.

Run a small disconnect (sized for your panel to be fed) which is fed off your existing meter. Do this by attaching the feed wires going to the disconnect from the load side of the meter lugs. This is now a new system, and the disconnect is now your first means of disconnect of that system. So 2 hots and 1 neutral feed the disconnect. Install a ground rod at the disconnect. Run 2 hots, 1 neutral, and 1 grd. from the disconnect to the panel it feeds, keeping the neutral bar isolated from the grounded panel. No ground rod is required at the new 'sub' panel you just fed.

As far as the grd and neutral wires being under the same lugs in your house panel, do you mean the branch circuits, or the wires feeding the panel? If its the branch circuit wires, thats ok if the lugs are rated for that many wires. Some are, some are not. The grd and neutral should be bonded together in that panel already, so no problemo. Can you re-feed the 12's that are in the 2" pipe any other way? Its a big no no to run branch circuit wiring in the same raceway as feeders. I hate it when that happens..lol Like I said before, #4's are legal (Table 310.15B6) and will work fine for 100A in residential, but 2's or 3's will work too. 4's are just easier to work with and a little less expensive. (these are all copper wires I am referring to) Your bare copper wire size for the wire you run to your grd. rod only needs to be #6 also. NEC is usually updated every 3 years with significant changes in every addition. Make sure whatever book you use is current to the existing code. I'm not trying to be a know it all, just want to help a person get it right the first time. Sorry I ran on like this....

btw, whereabouts in Ky are you? I have relatives in Louisville, and the Tolu/Marion areas.

Last edited by ztoy; 08-17-2005 at 10:31 AM.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 08-17-2005, 11:14 AM
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My situation is not the same as smoke's. IIUC, he (she? no offense intended either way) is wiring a 16x10 *attached* shop. I would just wire the circuits from the house box as alittle1 said. 6 duplex outlets on GFCI breakers, a lighting circuit and maybe a 220V circuit if needed. Local codes will rule, naturally.

Mine is essentially a barn and has to conform to different rules.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 08-18-2005, 12:45 AM
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Man I agree on that one bigun, sometimes the clusterfu*ks we walk into almost make you want to walk away. My problem is I want to see that its right, for safeties sake so I usually wade in...lol!

The same here call it professional pride I guess! Enough of the Hy-jack
Smoke or anyone else who needs electrical help feel free to PM or E- mail me
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 08-18-2005, 08:07 PM
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Dont worry about the hijach. I have gotten good info from you guys and am thankful for the help.
You are still talking about shops and electrical so it is all good.
I got the answer I was looking for Thanks.
The only thing that worries me is Grouch called me a he/she.LOL. Last I checked I was just a he. All in good fun.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 08-18-2005, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smoke
[. . . snipped . . .]
The only thing that worries me is Grouch called me a he/she.LOL. Last I checked I was just a he. All in good fun.
Well, dang it, hurry up and get some lights in here! My eyes are too old and abused to see in this unwired place.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 08-18-2005, 08:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smoke
Dont worry about the hijach. I have gotten good info from you guys and am thankful for the help.
You are still talking about shops and electrical so it is all good.
I got the answer I was looking for Thanks.
The only thing that worries me is Grouch called me a he/she.LOL. Last I checked I was just a he. All in good fun.
Please remember that this is by N.E.C. your local code authority may have other requirements. Good luck and keep us posted on your progress.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 08-18-2005, 08:53 PM
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Sorry about the delay in answering these questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ztoy
As far as the grd and neutral wires being under the same lugs in your house panel, do you mean the branch circuits, or the wires feeding the panel? If its the branch circuit wires, thats ok if the lugs are rated for that many wires. Some are, some are not. The grd and neutral should be bonded together in that panel already, so no problemo.
The branch circuits -- each one has its ground and neutral under the same lug on the buss bar. Not being an electrician, I just mimicked what was there as I replaced and added over the years. When I was asking around about rewiring my garage, an electrician told me that there should only be 1 wire in each position on that buss. Everything else he told me has been confirmed over and over, so I'm going to just grit my teeth and separate those things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ztoy
Can you re-feed the 12's that are in the 2" pipe any other way?
I think there are enough knock-outs left in the bottom of the box to move all of those to their own holes. I always wondered why that bunch had been done that way; there's nothing special about them. Almost all of my additions have been through the top of the box.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ztoy
btw, whereabouts in Ky are you? I have relatives in Louisville, and the Tolu/Marion areas.
Louisville is a couple of hours drive from me. I'm near Mammoth Cave National Park, out in the sticks.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 09-01-2005, 05:01 PM
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wow a 16 X 10 shed, Save Your Self Some Money you could get by with a 3/4 pvc buried and 3 #6s and a #10 ground, take a 100amp main lug 20 space panel and put in your shop, hook the #6 feeders from the house to the 60 amp breaker in shed, so it's like a main breaker in the shed panel, and feed the shed from the house with a 60amp 2 pole breaker, (don't even need a 60amp breaker in the shed as a main, butt not bad idea) don't bond the shed panel. i'm all for over kill on everything butt not a 16 X 10 shed, Why ? theres no room he said 4 a bigger building, run your cable TV and phone in separate conduit.





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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 09-01-2005, 06:45 PM
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I still don't understand why so much advice about installing conduit, heavy gauge feeders and separate panels. It's a small shop, just like the thread title says. Hell, my living room is bigger and probably draws more current with all the electronic toys that are in it.

I would bet 4 circuits added to the main house panel (3 at 115V, 1 at 220V) would cover smoke's shop needs.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 09-01-2005, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grouch
I still don't understand why so much advice about installing conduit, heavy gauge feeders and separate panels. It's a small shop, just like the thread title says. Hell, my living room is bigger and probably draws more current with all the electronic toys that are in it.

I would bet 4 circuits added to the main house panel (3 at 115V, 1 at 220V) would cover smoke's shop needs.
true and you could direct burie 4 circuits, butt conduit would be my choice, a sub panel is prob more cost effective than 4 circuits from the house.

go #8 wire and 40amp and sub panel

or #10 and 30amp sub panel


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