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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 09-02-2005, 12:47 AM
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First off I have tendency to plan for the future sure he is starting off with a small shed I wish I had that much! Some day he may wish to expand by installing what I recommended he won't have to worry about expansion.
Price wise the way I told him to do it is not that much more than
Micky Mousing it by running individual circuits back to the main panel. Something else to think about with the panel in the garage if some thing happens someone could kill the circuit in a hurry where if the have to leave the building and run to the panel in the house precious seconds that could mean life or death could be wasted.
Grumpy the latest code change state that we can put two ground under one screw as long as they are twisted together you just can't put two neutrals under one screw.

Now I am off to bed I have to be up in 4hrs or so to go to Co. and pick up a 1953 International P/U I accedently won off ebay in Jan.

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 09-02-2005, 11:56 AM
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This is Just My Opinion

by running individual circuits back to the main panel imo is Micky Mousing it also . although it would be NEC Code Correct and Safe, but not as cost effective, unless you have the material to do it.

This Statement is not 100%
if some thing happens someone could kill the circuit in a hurry where if the have to leave the building and run to the panel in the house precious seconds that could mean life or death could be wasted.
all circuits are overload and fault protected by breakers in the panel in the house

I Would Go with Option #1. or Option #2 below, if Future builds is a issue, then run a spare 1 1/2" conduit or a 2" conduit from the house panel outside and cap it off 4 future use.


#1. use a 30 or 40 amp breaker from the main panel and run a 3 wire #10 or 3 #8 feeders and one #10 or #12 ground to a small sub-panel (4 - 6 breakers).


#2. wow a 16 X 10 shed, Save Your Self Some Money you could get by with a 3/4 pvc buried and 3 #6s and a #10 ground, take a 100amp main lug 20 space panel and put in your shop, hook the #6 feeders from the house to the 60 amp breaker in shed, so it's like a main breaker in the shed panel, and feed the shed from the house with a 60amp 2 pole breaker, (don't even need a 60amp breaker in the shed as a main, butt not bad idea) don't bond the shed panel. i'm all for over kill on everything butt not a 16 X 10 shed, Why ? theres no room he said 4 a bigger building, run your cable TV and phone in separate conduit.

Mustangsaly
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 09-02-2005, 07:32 PM
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May be cheaper and more comfortable to get rid of the girlfriend. No damned wiring involved and a bed is more comfortable than a cot anyday!!
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 09-03-2005, 10:06 AM
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Do it right and install the 100A sub panel. Sure you are only using a 3/8" drill and 110 MIG today, but what happens when you get a few $$ ahead and get that 5hp compressor you have been wanting, finally get that plasma cutter you have been dreaming about and start on renovation of that '70 Hemi Cuda you have always wanted. You fire up all that hardware, your buddy is over grinding on the hemi heads with the 3hp disk grinder, you have Jimi blaring on your 20,000W stereo, your 5,000cfm swamp cooler is chugging right along, your 10,000W of shop lights are glowing brightly and BOOM! you vaporize your 10awg wire and 40A breaker. Point is, design for the future, not the present.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 09-03-2005, 03:44 PM
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Willys:

I think you're going to have trouble getting all those tools into that 16x10 space and then squeezing those buddies in to fire them all up at the same time.

Start of thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by smoke
I am building a small shop 16x10 and want to put 3 outlets in it and one light on a switch. I want one outlet for my welder and compressor and the other two just for small tools and radio.
I plan on running wire from the panel in the house to another small pannel in the shop.
Is this the best way to do it? and what size wire should I run from the house? and also what size fuses?
Maybe I'm nuts, but IMO building for the future in this case would just mean putting in a large enough conduit to allow for a larger subpanel and conductors, someday.

In a 16x10 building, even if you put an outlet every two feet along each of the 4 walls and used a hole in the roof to get in and out, 4 circuits would carry all of them. If you ran 4 ft. shop lights end to end along the 16 ft dimension of the shop and put those lines every 2 ft along the ceiling for a total of 16 fixtures, you're still looking at only 1280 watts. That's well below 80% loading of 1 20A circuit. If you put those lines of 4 fixtures every foot, turning the ceiling into solid shop lights, it's still just 2880 watts.

I can see where a 6 space, 100A subpanel makes sense for cost effectiveness (as Mustangsaly pointed out) and for convenience of some future expansion. A 20 space just looks like wasted money, to me, for such a small shop.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 09-03-2005, 10:02 PM
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Your'e right. Run a 12awg romex from a 30amp breaker in your house box and call it good.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 09-04-2005, 01:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustangsaly
This is Just My Opinion

by running individual circuits back to the main panel imo is Micky Mousing it also . although it would be NEC Code Correct and Safe, but not as cost effective, unless you have the material to do it.

This Statement is not 100%
if some thing happens someone could kill the circuit in a hurry where if the have to leave the building and run to the panel in the house precious seconds that could mean life or death could be wasted.
all circuits are overload and fault protected by breakers in the panel in the house

Mustangsaly
I wasn't thinking of an overload situation I was thinking more along the lines of OMG Jimmy's got his hand caught in the grinder!!!
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 09-12-2005, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigun
I wasn't thinking of an overload situation I was thinking more along the lines of OMG Jimmy's got his hand caught in the grinder!!!

should be able to pull the cord out of the receptacle or turn the switch off on the tool, as fast as flipping a breaker imo. a small panel in the shed is the way to go but thats just imho...........





Mustangsaly
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 09-13-2005, 12:08 AM
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I know this will sound like I am clutching at straws to defend my position but you must remember that I am used to installing equipment in the commercial application that is hardwired. So no plug to unplug hitting the switch is one options but if you happened to be next to the panel!!!
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 09-14-2005, 07:17 AM
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How many electricians does it take to wire a shed? *LOL* A detached structure gets treated just like your house's service, not as a sub panel. You need only 3 wires and to drive a ground rod to bond the panel. The white and ground are bonded in the shed panel. Here in NJ, unless we can prove the impeadence is less then 25 OHM's we must install 2 ground rods (check code). So 2 ground rods it is on a service change or new service.

IMO, economics needs to play a part. Heck, this is a 160 sgft...just how much power do you need? IMO, 40-60 amps are more then enough but 100 amp "USE" cable is cheap as is a 100 amp main lug panel (he doesn't need more then 6 breakers)

If it were my place, I think I'd just run 10/3 UF connected to a 20 amp double pole breaker splitting off to 20 amp GFCI recepticles and call it a day. You could use 12/3 UF but the larget size would limit voltage drop on the compressor when it starts. Adding a panel in the shed would also require him to keep 30" of free space in front of the panen. In a small area like this, that's a lot of lost space that could be used for a tool box, bench, ect.

Last edited by Huskinhano; 09-14-2005 at 09:06 AM.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 09-14-2005, 09:10 AM
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"A detached structure gets treated just like your house's service, not as a sub panel."-huskinho

Your logic is ok, but I think, before you make a statement like the one above, you might want to consider where this shed is located. Here in Michigan, this would require a sub panel and not a separate service. Been there, done that. Here, anyways.

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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 09-14-2005, 09:17 AM
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That's true. I just failed on a service change because I didn't leave the cover of the load center LOOSE! In addition, he failed me because I didn't have a strap with in 6" of the service head and you're allowed 12". The same guy failed my friend in the same town on a service change because the 10 year old alarm system that wasn't any way shape or form related to the job and not even located by the panel didn't have a bushing where the low voltage wires came in! My friend had to fix that.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 09-14-2005, 06:08 PM
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So the inspectors in your area think they are God like the ones here do. Man I'm not surprised. I ran a service truck in an area not too far from here where we had two utility companies. To top it off 3 townships intersected there and we had 3 different inspectors with 3 totally different views on the code. We also had a state inspector for a 4th area there. Now mind you, this was a town of about 15k people. And to make it even better, neither one of the utility co.'s would connect to a service if you used a meter socket that the other utility co. used. Unreal, so I can appreciate what you are saying there.
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Old 09-14-2005, 08:22 PM
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electrical help

Its such a small addition/shop couldnt you just build it now and later on after its done wire it up with the help of an electrician friend?
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 09-14-2005, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ztoy
So the inspectors in your area think they are God like the ones here do. Man I'm not surprised. I ran a service truck in an area not too far from here where we had two utility companies. To top it off 3 townships intersected there and we had 3 different inspectors with 3 totally different views on the code. We also had a state inspector for a 4th area there. Now mind you, this was a town of about 15k people. And to make it even better, neither one of the utility co.'s would connect to a service if you used a meter socket that the other utility co. used. Unreal, so I can appreciate what you are saying there.
Wow I thought I had it bad with city state and county to worry about. NM has a state code along with NEC that we have to deal with. The only place it gets a little weird is Santa Fe the so called "city different" I did one job there passed my final inspection and the customer called another electrician in to check the inspector. I went to the inspector and told him what was going on he told me " Oh we're used to that"!!! All I could do was look at him and say "*** if I did that to any of my inspectors I would be up in front of a board so fast my head would be spinning". he just said "This is Santa Fe"
That is the first and only job I have done there.
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