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-   -   Small shop / electrical help. (http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/small-shop-electrical-help-67724.html)

smoke 08-08-2005 08:19 PM

Small shop / electrical help.
 
I am building a small shop 16x10 and want to put 3 outlets in it and one light on a switch. I want one outlet for my welder and compressor and the other two just for small tools and radio.
I plan on running wire from the panel in the house to another small pannel in the shop.
Is this the best way to do it? and what size wire should I run from the house ? and also what size fuses?

Thank you.

Fast Orange 08-08-2005 08:32 PM

What voltage/amperage on welder and compressor?
What size is main service to house?
Are there 2 empty pole spaces in house circuit breaker panel?
Is shop attached to house or separate building?

George :cool:

smoke 08-08-2005 09:56 PM

Welder is 110 volt 25-140 amp. Compressor is 110 volt 15 amp.
Service to house is a 200 amps.
I have 6 extra spaces and the shop will be 5 feet from the side of the house. A total of 17 feet from the panel if I go underground.

Thank you.

bigun 08-09-2005 12:30 AM

I would run 3 #4 copper and 1 number #6 be nice to your self use 1 1/4 or 1 1/2 PVC pipe.Use a 100 amp two pole breaker in your main panel connect 2 of the #4s to it, the 3rd #4 mark white either with tape or paint and connect to neutral buss. The #6 mark green and connect to the ground bar. On the sub panel you can have a main breaker or not (I would because in an emergency it will allow you to shut all the power off at once) connect the 2 wires from the breaker in the main panel to either your main breaker in the sub panel or to the buss bar if panel does not come with main breaker there will be two clamps that connect to the breaker spaces that is where you land the first two wires. The white wire connect to the neutral buss. Be sure your sub-panel has a separate ground buss in the sub-panel only grounds connect to ground buss and only neutrals connect to the neutral buss. When you look in your main panel you will probably see them mixed they must be kept apart in the sub-panel. Be sure to look to make sure that neutral buss is not grounded in the sub-panel.as for wiring the garage I would use #12 for all you 110 receptacles and put them on 20 amp breakers. From the info you give you should be able to run most of your equipment off 20 amp circuits. I am confused on your welder is 25-140 the output? I hope this helps you if not let me know. Oh just to assure everyone that I have some idea of which I speak I own a small electrical contracting company and have been in the trade for 13 years.

alittle1 08-09-2005 03:45 PM

Because the shop is ONLY 16X10 and only 17 feet from the panel, I would just run a 30 or 40 amp breaker (used for dryer or stove) on the main panel and run a 3 wire #10 to a small sub-panel (4 - 6 breakers). Because this is a convenience panel I wouldn't worry about running large wire to it, chances are you would never be welding and using a compressor at the SAME TIME. I would then run a couple of 12 ga. runs to a few plugs using a 15 or 20 amp breaker. If I got a larger welder or compressor that used 220 V, I would deal with it at that time by adding a 30 amp breaker (DPST) for a dryer or stove plug so I could plug the welder or compressor in. The other plugs would remain as is and on line because you would never run them all at the same time.

smoke 08-09-2005 08:30 PM

Thanks for the addvice.

larryblack 08-09-2005 08:46 PM

I like bigun's way best. But then again I believe in building for more that I will ever need. That way you only have to buy and run wire ONCE.

What ever size you do run, IMO you should connect the wires to the main house panel absolutely LAST. Have all other wiring done then connect to the main panel.

Just because the breaker is off does not guarantee it won't get "ACCIDENTALLY" turned on when you least expect.

johnnymopar 08-09-2005 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigun
I would run 3 #4 copper and 1 number #6 be nice to your self use 1 1/4 or 1 1/2 PVC pipe.Use a 100 amp two pole breaker in your main panel connect 2 of the #4s to it, the 3rd #4 mark white either with tape or paint and connect to neutral buss. The #6 mark green and connect to the ground bar. On the sub panel you can have a main breaker or not (I would because in an emergency it will allow you to shut all the power off at once) connect the 2 wires from the breaker in the main panel to either your main breaker in the sub panel or to the buss bar if panel does not come with main breaker there will be two clamps that connect to the breaker spaces that is where you land the first two wires. The white wire connect to the neutral buss. Be sure your sub-panel has a separate ground buss in the sub-panel only grounds connect to ground buss and only neutrals connect to the neutral buss. When you look in your main panel you will probably see them mixed they must be kept apart in the sub-panel. Be sure to look to make sure that neutral buss is not grounded in the sub-panel.as for wiring the garage I would use #12 for all you 110 receptacles and put them on 20 amp breakers. From the info you give you should be able to run most of your equipment off 20 amp circuits. I am confused on your welder is 25-140 the output? I hope this helps you if not let me know. Oh just to assure everyone that I have some idea of which I speak I own a small electrical contracting company and have been in the trade for 13 years.

you might want to use #3awg wire, #4 isn't rated for 100A.

personally, i'd use 6/3 NMD90, it appears that you're not going too crazy with outlets and lighting and heavyduty tools. 60A is still a lot of power and with smaller wire and fittings it'll save you a bit of money. you might want to go to a supplier and get 100A priced vs. 60A and make an honest decision about what you will be doing in the shop and what tools you'll be using and then go from there.

JB

bigun 08-10-2005 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnnymopar
you might want to use #3awg wire, #4 isn't rated for 100A.

personally, i'd use 6/3 NMD90, it appears that you're not going too crazy with outlets and lighting and heavyduty tools. 60A is still a lot of power and with smaller wire and fittings it'll save you a bit of money. you might want to go to a supplier and get 100A priced vs. 60A and make an honest decision about what you will be doing in the shop and what tools you'll be using and then go from there.

JB

Hmm did they change it in the 2005 code? We have always used #4 for 100 amp. I don't have 2005 code book yet and my 2002 is out in the truck.Depending on brand of panel price of breaker should not be a real factor most Square D are around $16. for the smaller 2 pole 20-60 the bigger 60 and up should be in the $20-$30 these are home depot prices off the top of my head so I could be off. As has been pointed out I believe in future wiring IE planning for what happens down the road. By running a 100 amp He'll be ready for most up grades by running in 1 1/4 PVC or larger(2 inch is my favorite) he will be able at a later date to repull wire in case of trouble. I would also run a phone line in which could double as intercom, but thats me I tend to over do it sometimes. LOL Good luck which ever route you go! Keep us informed.

johnnymopar 08-10-2005 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigun
Hmm did they change it in the 2005 code? We have always used #4 for 100 amp. I don't have 2005 code book yet and my 2002 is out in the truck.Depending on brand of panel price of breaker should not be a real factor most Square D are around $16. for the smaller 2 pole 20-60 the bigger 60 and up should be in the $20-$30 these are home depot prices off the top of my head so I could be off. As has been pointed out I believe in future wiring IE planning for what happens down the road. By running a 100 amp He'll be ready for most up grades by running in 1 1/4 PVC or larger(2 inch is my favorite) he will be able at a later date to repull wire in case of trouble. I would also run a phone line in which could double as intercom, but thats me I tend to over do it sometimes. LOL Good luck which ever route you go! Keep us informed.

well, up here in Canada, that's all we sell is #3 for 100A. i'd have to check the code book also to get a precise rating.

anyway, i understand where you're coming from as far as building bigger than necessary, but you have to remember that this guy's shop is only 16'x10'. when he puts his car in there, there's not going to be much room left for tools so i doubt that he'd every really need that much power. i'm just trying to be realistic and not have him spend more than he needs to. however, it's a short run, so running 2" pipe would probably be a good idea for future additions.

JB


JB

alittle1 08-11-2005 10:40 AM

While your running that 2" conduit, might as well put the cable in for tv, the sterio wires, alarm wires, security cameras, etc. When I first saw Smoke's post, I thought to myself, this guy has a nice little shop located beside the house that he likes to go out and putter around in. With a 16X10 shed, what kind of car are you going to put in there? I think Smoke's probably got the right size in mind for the work he does. Who knows, he may have a 80 X 120 building on the back 40 that he feels lost in. I have a 24 X 30 attached garage, a 30 X 40 working garage and a 30 X 45 car storage shed, but when I'm tinkering around, I always go to my 2 X 2 overcrowded space on the work bench to work, feels like home.

Smoke, forgot to mention to you, don't forget to put a double receptical convenience plug close to the bench or a strip socket on the wall by the bench. Allows you to keep your favorite tools and chargers plugged in. C U AL

smoke 08-11-2005 08:01 PM

Thank you all for your addvice. It is just going to be a little shop for my tools and doing some puttering arond in. Some place just to get away from the girlfriend. Dont tell her that :D . I dont have a big place so this is all the room I have so the car will still set outside but now I will have a place to put my tools besides in the utility room.
I think the 2'' conduit would be good for the tv cable also. Now If I could just get my cot set up and a mini frige the only time I will have to go in the house is for the bathroom.
You guys have some good ideas. I like this brainstorming thing.

bigun 08-14-2005 09:02 PM

Glad to help!!

ztoy 08-15-2005 08:28 AM

2" pipe is a bit of overkill for 100a feed as 1 1/2" will meet code requirements as well as be a bit cheaper. bigun is giving you the best guide to doing it for sure. By NEC, #3 is what they call for, but by exception, in residential, #4 is allowed. Being that close there will not be a voltage drop problem with either size wire. And thats stranded copper wire too, not aluminum. The suggestion of running a couple of separate pipes, maybe 3/4" or 1", for catv and phone is a great idea as well since you only want to dig once. lol DO NOT run anything in your pipe which feeds power (the #4's) other than the 4 wires that bigun says. Run all the other stuff in their own raceways (pipes).

sounds like you were given some very sound advice. good luck!

bigun 08-16-2005 02:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ztoy
2" pipe is a bit of overkill for 100a feed as 1 1/2" will meet code requirements as well as be a bit cheaper. bigun is giving you the best guide to doing it for sure. By NEC, #3 is what they call for, but by exception, in residential, #4 is allowed. Being that close there will not be a voltage drop problem with either size wire. And thats stranded copper wire too, not aluminum. The suggestion of running a couple of separate pipes, maybe 3/4" or 1", for catv and phone is a great idea as well since you only want to dig once. lol DO NOT run anything in your pipe which feeds power (the #4's) other than the 4 wires that bigun says. Run all the other stuff in their own raceways (pipes).

sounds like you were given some very sound advice. good luck!

Whoops I am glad you caught the separate raceways for the low voltage :embarrass :rolleyes:
I am in the habit of using bigger pipe because I work mostly by my self and bigger is easier to pull through
:mwink: :mwink:


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