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Old 09-20-2013, 08:41 AM
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smaller water pump pulley

wondering if a smaller WP pulley would improve cooling, i'm just concerned about cavitation at high speed but the 350 SB is on a Jeep so will spend most of time under 3000 RPM, cooling at low speed or just off idle is an issue, i have a serpentine belt conversion, pulley is about 5.5" now, i'm thinking about to redue diameter of 3/4" or so, any thought or real life experience would be greatly apprecciated.
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Old 09-20-2013, 08:52 AM
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the serpentine system require a reverse rotation pump? If it does, do you have one?
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Old 09-20-2013, 08:56 AM
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water circulation

The local tractor mechanic drilled and tapped holes in his intake and ran 5 /16 copper tubing to pull hot water away from the back of the heads. A lot of the time he works the 400 when pulling a trailer, usually a good fan and shroud with the right radiator should work.
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Old 09-20-2013, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg T View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the serpentine system require a reverse rotation pump? If it does, do you have one?
Yes and yes, WP is an aluminum high flow model too but i guess chinese stuff...
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Old 09-20-2013, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepers creepers View Post
wondering if a smaller WP pulley would improve cooling, i'm just concerned about cavitation at high speed but the 350 SB is on a Jeep so will spend most of time under 3000 RPM, cooling at low speed or just off idle is an issue, i have a serpentine belt conversion, pulley is about 5.5" now, i'm thinking about to redue diameter of 3/4" or so, any thought or real life experience would be greatly apprecciated.
If you're having cooling problems it most likely isn't the pump or the speed it turns at. Unless you've got a confusion between reverse rotation pumps for serpentine belts and clockwise rotation pumps for V belts, persistent cooling issues are usually an inablilty to move enough air across the radiator, too small a radiator, incorrect fan for the direction the pump is turning, failing parts like a collapsing intake hose or stuck thermostat, lack of the bypass hose, improper tuning of cam to crank, ignition timing, or leaned out carb of fuel injection. Assuming the pump is sized correctly and with the import pumps that can be a question but any factory or quality aftermarket pump has so much excess capacity with stock sized pulleys that worrying about pump output is a waste of time. In fact years ago when stock car racing meant "STOCK" the problem was excess cooling when running without a thermostat.

My builds use Edlebrock or Stewart pumps, I have yet to have a problem. I have one street build out there that the last time I saw it had over 200,000 miles on an aluminum Edlebrock pump with no seal or bearing problems.

Bogie
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Old 09-20-2013, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by oldbogie View Post
If you're having cooling problems it most likely isn't the pump or the speed it turns at. Unless you've got a confusion between reverse rotation pumps for serpentine belts and clockwise rotation pumps for V belts, persistent cooling issues are usually an inablilty to move enough air across the radiator, too small a radiator, incorrect fan for the direction the pump is turning, failing parts like a collapsing intake hose or stuck thermostat, lack of the bypass hose, improper tuning of cam to crank, ignition timing, or leaned out carb of fuel injection. Assuming the pump is sized correctly and with the import pumps that can be a question but any factory or quality aftermarket pump has so much excess capacity with stock sized pulleys that worrying about pump output is a waste of time. In fact years ago when stock car racing meant "STOCK" the problem was excess cooling when running without a thermostat.

My builds use Edlebrock or Stewart pumps, I have yet to have a problem. I have one street build out there that the last time I saw it had over 200,000 miles on an aluminum Edlebrock pump with no seal or bearing problems.

Bogie
Thank you for the answer Bogie, actually the engine is not overheating but i have to say something more about the cooling system.

Radiator is a full aluminum Novak (don't know if is made by Griffin or not), nice quality anyway, primary cooling is a 2700 CFM electric fan,(don't have enaugh clearance between engine and rad so i went for this) i also made a shroud for it wich is very effective, fan is spun through a Flex A Lite regulator that turns fan from 60 to 100% depends on the temperature engine is running, it is also adjustable, so you decide what temp the fan kicks in, water pump is a alu made , reverse rotation specific fot the serpentine belt conversion, i do have a 180 degree thermostat (tried a few included a 195 and this was the right one in my opinion), engine has Edelbrock alu heads too that help to dissipate heat a lot.
Radiator is getting plenty of air, there's nothing inf front of that but a tube and fins trans cooler, nothing to be worried about because it doesn't affect the air flow or just something very minor.
The engine is running very good, timing is ok, temperature is very stable even in our hot summer with 35 C, fan regulator is working wonderfully, i've just seen the temp get hotter when engine is under load for a few minutes, not necessarily high RPM, nothing scary, just hotter than usual so i was thinking about put a better fan and or find a solution to avoid coolant hotter peaks, electric water pump, bigger rad fan, and an engine oli cooler (i know is not super effective but helps for sure).
i Like mechanical water pump the more becasue it turns proportionally to the RPM, while an electric one is not but may be for off roading would be a good solution but i'd like to know what you think about to fabricate a smaller water pump pulley just to improve flow at low RPM, again, engine is on a jeep that runs most of the time at low RPM so cavitation is probably not the biggest concern.
Thank you.
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Old 09-20-2013, 02:49 PM
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"Cooling at low speed or just off idle is an issue"

That sounds like a bad or incorrect fan or fan clutch. The blade pitch of the fan and the fan clutch must be designed for the rotation water pump. It is easy to determine if the fan is correct because it will pull air through the radiator if it has the correct blade pitch. However, it is difficult to determine if the fan clutch is correct for the rotation of the water pump.

The 1988 - 1992 fan clutches that are designed to rotate CCW with a serpentine belt are held to the fan by four M10-1.5 bolts. The fan clutches that are designed to rotate CW are held to the fan by four 5/16" bolts. Be advised: The GM C/K and RV series trucks through 1992, used either a CCW or a CW rotation fan clutch.
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Old 09-20-2013, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MouseFink View Post
"Cooling at low speed or just off idle is an issue"

That sounds like a bad or incorrect fan or fan clutch. The blade pitch of the fan and the fan clutch must be designed for the rotation water pump. It is easy to determine if the fan is correct because it will pull air through the radiator if it has the correct blade pitch. However, it is difficult to determine if the fan clutch is correct for the rotation of the water pump.

The 1988 - 1992 fan clutches that are designed to rotate CCW with a serpentine belt are held to the fan by four M10-1.5 bolts. The fan clutches that are designed to rotate CW are held to the fan by four 5/16" bolts. Be advised: The GM C/K and RV series trucks through 1992, used either a CCW or a CW rotation fan clutch.
I don't have any mechanical clutch and or fan, electrica fan is primary cooling source, i'm sure water pump is the correct one, remember that with serpentine belt conversion reverse rotation pump was needed, i just put an alu one instead the stock iron included in the set.
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Old 09-21-2013, 04:55 AM
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Did you remove the back plate from the aluminum water pump and see if it was actually designed to turn CCW? Many of the aftermarket aluminum water pumps are made in Singapore or China and the quality control is not the best. Why are you using an electric fan? I assume it is because of lack of room for a 17" - 19" fan and a thermo-controlled fan clutch.
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Old 09-21-2013, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MouseFink View Post
Did you remove the back plate from the aluminum water pump and see if it was actually designed to turn CCW? Many of the aftermarket aluminum water pumps are made in Singapore or China and the quality control is not the best. Why are you using an electric fan? I assume it is because of lack of room for a 17" - 19" fan and a thermo-controlled fan clutch.
i did remove the back plate from the pump because it was leaking due to the awesome chinese quality, i made a thick alu plate to replace it, honestly i didn't check the "propeller" if was backward or not.
I'm tempted to make a smaller pulley tomorrow, just wondering if i will get any better or not.
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Old 09-21-2013, 12:06 PM
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I bought a AC Delco water pump in the unopened original box after I purchased the TSP aluminum water pump so I would not have to check the impeller. If I ever use the TSP (China) aluminum water pump, I will inspect the direction of rotation before I install it. I don't believe a smaller water pump pulley will allow the engine to run any coler. I think your engine cooling problem is elsewhere.

Don't blame the Chinese or any other foreign manufacturer for poor quality parts. The offshore parts manufacturers will make anything an American company wants. If a American company wants a POS, a foreign supplier will be happy to make them a POS.
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Old 09-22-2013, 05:56 AM
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what do you guys think about an electrical one like Meziere, Moroso and so on?
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Old 09-22-2013, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by jeepers creepers View Post
what do you guys think about an electrical one like Meziere, Moroso and so on?

I've been running an electric pump on mine for a few years now without incident. One thing you want to do is drill a couple of holes in your thermostat so the pump isn't dead-heading.

I think you should check your advance curve in the distributor. Too little initial timing and/or slow mechanical advance can cause heating issues at slow engine speeds. Try to get about 18* or 20* initial and then add 10* on manifold vacuum. The engine will be much more responsive on the street and will run much cooler.
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Old 09-22-2013, 09:14 AM
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I've been running an electric pump on mine for a few years now without incident. One thing you want to do is drill a couple of holes in your thermostat so the pump isn't dead-heading.

I think you should check your advance curve in the distributor. Too little initial timing and/or slow mechanical advance can cause heating issues at slow engine speeds. Try to get about 18* or 20* initial and then add 10* on manifold vacuum. The engine will be much more responsive on the street and will run much cooler.
Advance should be fine , i checked and set that with the gun some month ago, don't remember now the toal advance but throttle response is very good, i can check that again just to be more precise.

Thank you, speaking about cooling, did you see any better with the electrical one compared to the stock mechanical? what kind is your WP, i mean make, model and GPM, i've seen model that turn from 20 to 55 GPM, no idea how much coolant a stock mechanical one could move at high RPM.
My engine is basicly a 1 gen SB with a serpentine belt conversion that has a counterclockwise WP, i don't know about how would be the belt routing with an electrical one and if i'll get some issue by the belt hitting in somewhere, i'm wondering if anyone has it on his car...

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Old 09-22-2013, 09:46 AM
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I believe the one I bought was the Summit billet aluminum model. Can't remember the specs. It's fine for around town and highway driving, but don't try to make two or more dyno pulls. I made my first chassis dyno pull and it was fine. Reset the dyno, made the second pull and my temp was at 240*. The problem with electric pumps is that they flow the same, regardless of engine RPM. Although mine cools fine for every day use, it fails miserably under high engine loads. When this electric pump craps out, and it will, I will get a nice Stewart mechanical.
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