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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 11-08-2012, 09:26 AM
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Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
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Originally Posted by against all odds View Post
i clicked on this thread because i wanted to discuss the psychology of abuse, not necessarily g.s's role in this.

So, let's first clarify that: i/we do not know exactly what the circumstances of his situation are/were. i think people plea bargain to avoid the risk of conviction regardless of innocence or not. i, however, feel that if i'm not guilty, then i would not want to plea bargain. The point i'm trying to get at is i don't think he was ever convicted (?) of this horrible crime.

i am open to discuss whether we think he did it or not.

But mainly i wanted to discuss the psychology of abuse in general.

1) What makes a person do this.

2) (ties in with #1) i don't i need to go in to detail, but if a "desire" is wanted, but can't be achieved due to illegality then there are other ways to, say, "extinguish the fire" so to speak. Why then, do people still perpetrate this terrible thing?

a) i think by now any adult knows this is wrong? Could part of the problem be that some people don't know that it is wrong?
1. Severe mental illness brought on by a cross wiring from birth or severe abuse or a combination of the two I imagine.

2. A "desire" is just that, until it is acted upon. We all have "desires" from eating the whole cake instead of a slice, to rubbing the next door neighbors wife with soap in the shower, these are NORMAL "desires" that are easily controlled. We overcome easily every single day. When we can't (or choose not to) overcome them, that is when we need help. Be it simply self help books IMMERSING yourself in self help books if it isn't a too serious desire. To seeking help thru therapy. If it is a serious desire I would say they should jump to therapy immediately when they see the red flag of the desire.

a, yes that is the problem, there is going to be a certain number who have such a cross wiring problem in their brain they don't know what is wrong.

But often they "talk them selves into it" justifying their actions that they KNOW are wrong. If they know the desires are wrong, THAT is their first sign to get help, often they don't unfortunately.

I have no idea how many could be helped with therapy, but I would bet a LOT of them. It's a shame they justify those desires and become evil when it could have been corrected for all to lead a normal life.

Brian

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 11-08-2012, 09:40 AM
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ssedan64 i like your thinkin.and there aint no cure. none of em should ever get a second chance....i hate the term repeat offender in these cases.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 11-08-2012, 09:51 AM
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Over in the UK a huge scandal has broken involving a DJ/TV presenter
who died last year, turns out he was a prolific paedophile and abused hundreds.

I viewed him as an oddball, did great charity work raising millions but he intigrated himself into various places to be near to his targets.
Even volunteering to work in hospitals as a porter, turns out he had a "thing"
for the dead.
Him and all who are being associated with him are the sewer life of this world.
No excuses.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 11-08-2012, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by malc View Post
Over in the UK a huge scandal has broken involving a DJ/TV presenter
who died last year, turns out he was a prolific paedophile and abused hundreds.

I viewed him as an oddball, did great charity work raising millions but he intigrated himself into various places to be near to his targets.
Even volunteering to work in hospitals as a porter, turns out he had a "thing"
for the dead.
Him and all who are being associated with him are the sewer life of this world.
No excuses.
I honestly don't know who I am more disgusted with the perp or the person who would turn their head and ignore it! Honestly, I don't know who I would want to smash their friggin head more!

It's like the Sanduski case where that assistant coach saw the piece of garbage in the shower with a boy, that would have stopped RIGHT THERE if it were me! Sanduski had manipulated the adults as well! He is an EVIL MONSTER that needs to be eliminated from society permanently!


Brian
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 11-08-2012, 12:48 PM
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I honestly don't know who I am more disgusted with the perp or the person who would turn their head and ignore it! Honestly, I don't know who I would want to smash their friggin head more!

It's like the Sanduski case where that assistant coach saw the piece of garbage in the shower with a boy, that would have stopped RIGHT THERE if it were me! Sanduski had manipulated the adults as well! He is an EVIL MONSTER that needs to be eliminated from society permanently!


Brian
see, HERE , I have an issue..
in todays world.. YOU BETTER BE DAM SURE you can PROVE what you say..
cause if my life was turned upside down and inside out because of what you "thought" you saw. I'd own everything of the ones acusing ..
there IS a reason cops wait untill they have enough proof.
I think it's sick... all of it.. but whats sicker is the ones that claim stuff happened but are only along for the gravytrain.. payout..
no one says boo, and then there are 15 that come out of the woodwork..
or in the priest case thousands.. come on..
we live in a land that doesn't really shelter children, by 8 or9 they know. if this type actions are wrong.. this waiting 25-30 years.. has got to stop..
I feel for thoe that this happens to.. but at the sametime it's to easy to make a claim and distroy a person. and not have to prove a thing..
just get a laywer to get some more to come forward..

those that do pray on children should rot in jail.. or death.. but I'm sorry, jailing people over hearsay.. I can't go along with.. if they are guilty as sin and you waited to long, to bad.. I also think in the cases of child diddlers and rape both parties should have to take a polygraph. the one claiming it. and tho. some say over time a person can make themselves believe it happened even if it didn't, the one being accused won't .. if they agree to a ploy and pass the courts should be able to take that into account.. the court of law was for justice, not to see what lawyer or lawyer team is better at chess..
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 11-08-2012, 02:26 PM
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"Ya Wanna Be In My Gang" , Gary Glitter also arrested, he´s done time before.
In the UK there is no time limit for anyone to come forward and accuse the person who sexually molested them.
It does worry me that the accused are put to trial by media and once accused have to prove their innocence.

DJ Jimmy Savile also liked to "hang out" with convicted killers, himself once being on the suspect list.
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Old 11-08-2012, 03:05 PM
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i can understant how a feller can kill if hes pushed just rite. i could even forgive it. but not hurtin kids and women . those people carry a scar you cant see.and to give them extra chances to do it over and over are way out of my range of understandin. are the ones that let out responsible.. yes they are. to me its them as much as the one comittin the crime.yes i get carried away but this is a serious issue with me. im fed up. i sure hope i dont find out one of them creeps lives around here. he wont be for long. theres kid all over here. i wont have it. if hes here he better stay hid.i aint the only one around here that feels this way either.i aint seen no signs in any of the yards. do they really have to have one??? i ben lookin too, dont think i aint watchin for these kids. i am , and not just me.
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Old 11-08-2012, 06:51 PM
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i don't know----g.s. seems pretty well put together and all, and very technically knowledgeable.

So i'm shocked if true.

We picture a person who would do something like this as a deviant, kind of "out there." etc.

So that makes me fascinated by the psychology of it all.

i would think a person with his intelligence would know that it is wrong. Like i said, there are ways to "extinguish" the desire. i wouldn't know first hand, but i feel like if you couldn't do certain things with children, then you would not go insane? If we go back to the whole cake analogy, you would not suffer sever mental anguish if you didn't get cake. You might be unhappy, but not the to point of severe adversity.

So, if he did do what we think (is there a way to find his criminal history) then i'm curious as to what caused him to do so?

a) If a person themselves was abused, why would this cause them to repeat it on others?
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 11-08-2012, 07:51 PM
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i cant see how it could make someone want to do these bad things to another because it was done to them. i think the oposite. in a sane rational person that is. im sure the ones with mental prolems from the start could produce this behaveyor. my spellin sux dont it???
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2012, 01:11 AM
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Accusing without evidence.

The result of trial by media 1.

The result of trial by media 2.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2012, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E.Furgal View Post
see, HERE , I have an issue..
in todays world.. YOU BETTER BE DAM SURE you can PROVE what you say..
cause if my life was turned upside down and inside out because of what you "thought" you saw. I'd own everything of the ones acusing ..
there IS a reason cops wait untill they have enough proof.
I think it's sick... all of it.. but whats sicker is the ones that claim stuff happened but are only along for the gravytrain.. payout..
no one says boo, and then there are 15 that come out of the woodwork..
or in the priest case thousands.. come on..
we live in a land that doesn't really shelter children, by 8 or9 they know. if this type actions are wrong.. this waiting 25-30 years.. has got to stop..
I feel for thoe that this happens to.. but at the sametime it's to easy to make a claim and distroy a person. and not have to prove a thing..
just get a laywer to get some more to come forward..

those that do pray on children should rot in jail.. or death.. but I'm sorry, jailing people over hearsay.. I can't go along with.. if they are guilty as sin and you waited to long, to bad.. I also think in the cases of child diddlers and rape both parties should have to take a polygraph. the one claiming it. and tho. some say over time a person can make themselves believe it happened even if it didn't, the one being accused won't .. if they agree to a ploy and pass the courts should be able to take that into account.. the court of law was for justice, not to see what lawyer or lawyer team is better at chess..
Of course I would act to the level of what I was seeing, I'm not going to bust someone's skull open on a "hunch", but I am going to confront them on a "hunch" understand?

Sandusky was seen NAKED in the shower "wrestling" with a NAKED boy. I would say that is enough reason to slam someones head! If you are that much of a social illiterate you MUST be removed from any position like that. Let me put it his way, that scandal and what has came forth about what others had seen and knew is damn near destroying that college. It isn't some little hear say.

"hersay" is USUALLY a heck of a lot more than one person simply saying "he touched me". The victim is interviewed by doctors and this statement is much more than just taken as words, it is a big picture the doctors are looking for. Things have to fall into place with all the "evidence" making a puzzle until it is complete. Sure there are mistakes like in other investigations. But it is much more than just some guy pointing a finger and some innocent man going to jail.

On your waiting 30 years and every kid at 9 knows, you are very seriously lacking in an understanding of what power someone who manipulates others has. And I am happy for you that you don't have a clue, I truly am, I am happy for you. The manipulator has skills in literally MAKING you think what he or she wants you to think. You have seen Star Wars "These are not the Droids you are looking for", JUST like that, only it takes longer, they MANIPULATE, that is why they are called "Manipulators".

maˇnipˇuˇlate/məˈnipyəˌlāt/
Verb:
Handle or control (a tool, mechanism, etc.), typically in a skillful manner: "he manipulated the dials".
Alter, edit, or move (text or data) on a computer.

They take even the knowing and "alter, edit or move" the thinking of the victim.

I have been manipulated as an adult businessman was manipulated in a con to get his car done for free, and it WORKED. I can't explain the whole thing but this guy left me so whacked out it wasn't until the middle of the next day that I STARTED to understand what had happened.

"These aren't the Droids you're looking for" is an under statement, this guy made me do what he wanted me to do as skillfully as I had repaired his car. He is a PROFESSIONAL manipulator. And I soon found out with some detective work that this was his life, he lived every day manipulating everyone he came in contact with no matter how small or large, this was his life.

The person standing on the outside says "What a moron to fall for that", but they haven't a clue, just like the person who has never repaired a car in their life wouldn't believe I could pull the bed off their 2000 Chevy pickup and change the welded on bed side before lunch, the person who has never been exposed to a master manipulator can't believe that someone could "fall" for their lies.
I know one thing I will never knock the poor victim of a "pigeon drop" scheme. Pigeon drop - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Or Police Warn of Pigeon Drop Schemes and Distraction Thefts Who would be so dumb one would ask? Someone who hasn't ran into or isn't susceptible to the manipulators ways.

The manipulator tosses out bait, little tiny pieces of bait to see if he has a victim, these pieces of bait are totally harmless on their own, you wouldn't think a thing of them. When that piece of bait works for him, he tosses another, again, on it's own, it is nothing and you wouldn't think a thing, he then tosses another, and another until he has planted seeds in your mind, and he has proven to himself that he can go to another step with you, that you are "safe" and he can move on to the next step. Psychological manipulation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The mind is a very complex thing, what makes someone shut down and suppress bad memories, or "allow" such a horrendous thing to go on for years, many of these kids are abused for YEARS. You are going to have to delve deep into the study of mental health if you want to understand these things.

Someone standing on the outside looking in says "What a dummy to fall for that", it is pretty friggin obvious when you are standing on the outside looking in. Kind of like installing that quarter panel on a Chevy pickup, the owner of that truck who can't turn a wrench would sit there in a chair with a cup of coffee and watch me do it and then say "I didn't realize it was so easy".

Brian
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2012, 10:30 AM
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And by the way, that point I made about the manipulator tossing out bait? A discussion like this is a PERFECT place for him to toss out bait. He tosses out bait to see how the other person reacts to this subject! It is the perfect place to "test the waters" and see if you are "his kind" and you can hook up, be it finding a victim or finding a fellow molester whom he can swap stories or skills.

I know this because I had it happen to me in person. Long story but I was a kid about 14 and one of my friends brought me over to an old guys house in his neighborhood who was "cool". This guy had a few teenage boys living there. He had a kick butt stereo, litterally the whole wall was speakers and stereo equipement. Now someone who grew up in the 90's or 2000's wouldn't understand but in 1972 this would have been a big deal, this guy WAS "cool". He dropped "bait" that were red flags to me, I never went back. The "bait" was things that a teenager thinks about sex, and this guy was SOOO "cool" that he was "with you" and said these things like he was a "bud". It was a red flag to me, but others, that bait is taken. Now fast forward 20 years later and I have my body shop, this guy comes in for me to work on his car! He dropped some bait talking as we are talking now about some molester who was arrested! It was a HUGE red flag for me at that point in my life and he saw this and never said another word, he barely finished the sentence in fact. I happened to be friends with a few cops in town and discussed this with one of them. He then told me that this guy HAD been on their radar for YEARS! What he did wasn't forcibly molesting boys, he found boys who were fighting with (or had accepted) their sexuality and were gay. He gave them what they wanted in male friendship, compassion and intimacy. So they weren't there against their will, and the cops could do nothing about it.
There was another guy in town who owned a record store, he always had these young boys working for him and one day I found out that he had been a teacher who was fired over allegations. Where they just "hear say"? I guess, but in standing back and looking at the big picture and how he interacted with the boys in his store it was damn obvious to me after I took off my shades and could see!

This is MUCH more complicated than one thinks, until you start understanding it a little more.

Brian
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Old 11-10-2012, 11:51 AM
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Never thought I´d read about vigilante "justice" in the UK.
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Old 11-10-2012, 02:34 PM
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Never thought I´d read about vigilante "justice" in the UK.
i liked that story. i have no prolem with what happened. i do believe some of those guys "Knew what was up or it never woulda happened. thats all i would need. one of my kids comin to me and telliun me. thats proof enough for me but i know my kids too so id dang sure believe em.
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Old 11-15-2012, 01:55 PM
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I wonder why....its only been 6 friggin years.........
Nothing like digging up OLD trash and all its odors,,,
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